CARRINGTON: When you roll the tape, let me know.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I am rolling now.
CARRINGTON: May I have your name, sir, and your title.
HARRIS: My name is Curtis Harris. I'm minister of the Union Baptist Church and a member of the City Council in Hopewell.
CARRINGTON: Dr. Harris, can you give me your definition of segregation?
HARRIS: As I think about it in the past, I have to talk about it also in the present. In the past, segregation was the rule of law, and we accepted it fully in housing, in education, and the church, and every other way. That's the way segregation affected me in the past. I never accepted it, but I was not -- I was not able to do anything about it.
My mother accepted it. She was a domestic, and she worked for white people, and because we didn't have much, she used to bring home leftovers from the white folk table and hand-me-downs from the clothes that we had to wear. But we never -- I never accepted it.
And when I got older, I went to public schools, and I went to college for two years and found out that it's the same thing, segregation, and it was the law. And later on I hooked up with Martin Luther King, Jr., about 1961, and got involved with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and then I started to try to do something about it.
CARRINGTON: Tell me about the time with the SCLC and Martin Luther King -- and can you turn your head slightly this way? Yeah. Well, no, come back this way, about right -- yeah, that's right. Tell me about your time with SCLC and working with Dr. King.
HARRIS: Well, I met Dr. King in the fifties, right after he had conducted the March -- the bus rally in Alabama. He was invited to speak in Petersburg at the Mt. Olivette Baptist Church. And I went to the rally. And I thought that this was ordered from God to have a man such as this to speak to us, and after that, I thought it was good for me to follow him. I was in -- I was involved with the NAACP prior to that. I had been a local president. And we were trying to do something about the segregation -- or segregation.
CARRINGTON: Segregation, you were trying to do something?
HARRIS: We were trying to change the rules of law. In the fifties, the Supreme Court changed the law so that education would no longer be segregated, but it took ten years I guess before we could -- and it is still not finished, we are still having problems with segregation in education. You saw that in the paper recently in colleges.
So we still have not finished the deal. But Dr. King inspired us to go forward, and later on the sit-in movement came to pass. And that's when I really got involved with Martin Luther King, Jr.. We had sit-ins, lay-ins, and swim-ins, and we even filed a suit to integrate the cemeteries in the City of Hopewell.
CARRINGTON: What were some of the specific things you did in terms of sit-ins and lay-ins, where were some of the places you did those things?
HARRIS: I was involved in sit-ins in several places, including Danville, Richmond, Petersburg, and especially in Hopewell. There were about 75 people in Hopewell. Hopewell is a small city, only about 24,000 people in the whole city, and I think at that time about 18 percent of them were African Americans, and we were not able to sit down in the lunch counters, and we were not able to go into the main library. You had to -- not only in Hopewell, but in Petersburg, and across Virginia, you were not welcome into the library.
So we had to deal with all of that, and finally we had a demonstration in Washington, and Dr. King had his -- made his speech on -- when he was talking about how African Americans fared in the south, and he was going back to the south and change the conditions.
And then we got involved with the sit-in movement that started in North Carolina. And, oh, that was -- thousands of people went to jail regarding sitting at lunch counters. I went four or five times in Hopewell. Eventually, around the state and sometimes outside of the state I was arrested at least 13 times regarding the sit-in movement.
CARRINGTON: Now, with those things happening it was obviously that there were laws that prevented black people from having total civil rights. There was a commission in the State of Virginia called the Boatwright Commission which you appeared before. Would you tell us what the Boatwright Commission was and why they called upon you to be present to talk about it?
HARRIS: The Boatwright Commission was a legislative committee set up by a committee from the legislature in Virginia, and their aim was to put fear in the minds and the hearts of African Americans. It is no different than the Klu Klux Klan, just more sophisticated, but it was designed the same -- to do the same thing, to put fear in the hearts of African Americans. And so they started to fill out -- pick up people that were known activists, so all of us who were in that category were subpoenaed to the committee -- for the committee, and some of -- some of us decided that we were not going to cooperate with the segregation -- with segregation.
So the legislature then charged us before the circuit court in Hopewell to come before the court to determine whether or not we should put -- to go to jail because we wouldn't answer the question of a legislative committee. So I went two or three times before the -- to the -- before the circuit court, and Dr. Reid, who just preceded me, probably showed you -- told you the story about when he was with me concerning -- when the judge brought us together, the judge was in the back room, and when he came out of the back room, Milton, Milton Reid, stood up and said, let us pray. And the -- he stopped the judge dead in his tracks, and he bowed his head, also. And we had assembled hundreds of African American ministers and asked them to bring their black robes, their pulpit robes, and the judge had on a black robe, and it was interesting that when the judge came out of his chambers, and Milton got up and said, let us pray, the judge participated in the prayer, and after we -- he finished the prayer, Milton prayed a long prayer, and when he finished his prayer and said amen, the judge took his seat and with his gavel said there will be no more demonstrations in this courtroom. And then the judge continued the case. There was no -- they couldn't do anything that day. And then later on, we -- when I went back to court we summoned Dr. Martin Luther King to come to Hopewell, and he went with us to the court and we couldn't do the case that day, either. I guess it was too much things going on to handle the case. So I went to court two or three times regarding that case, and finally the judge decided that he's going to drop it, throw it out of court, and he warned me that the next time that you go -- that you are asked to come before this committee, you will answer all legitimate questions that the committee put before you, and dismissed us and let us go.
CARRINGTON: What were some of the questions that the Boatwright Committee was asking activists at that time?
HARRIS: They wanted to know my name, my address and who were with me in the organization, and what was the name of the organization. And I didn't answer any questions. I took the Fifth Amendment on all of the questions, including my name.
CARRINGTON: If they had gotten information from you, what was their -- what would they do with it, what were they trying to do with it?
HARRIS: They were trying to harass African Americans, people who -- that came to the meetings when we had mass meetings. And eventually people would come back -- would not come back because they would be -- the police would be on their case, and we assumed that that's what was going to happen, therefore, we were not going to come in -- were not going to support segregation, and even when the law is trying to harass us.
CARRINGTON: Who was governor during the time of the Boatwright Commission; was that Mills Godwin?
HARRIS: I believe so. I believe Mills Godwin was the governor.
CARRINGTON: And what was his -- do you know his role in helping to put that committee together, or what you perceived?
HARRIS: Well, the legislature set up a committee, a special committee to handle these situations to -- it did not -- they didn't call it a forum to harass black people, but Boatwright was a member of the legislature, and he became the chairman of the committee, and they gave him lawyers to support him, and every time we went to the legislature to be confronted with that situation, they -- their lawyer asked the question. And we had three lawyers, and they were advising us, don't do nothing, don't say nothing, so we didn't say nothing.
So when they found out that we were not going to participate -- and I think they let everybody go except me. I think they saved me for the last because David Bezonta was one of the persons, Reverend Wood, reverend -- from Lynchburg, David Gunter was in Petersburg. Davis Gunter was also working for the state. He worked at Virginia State University. But they let them go, and they zeroed in on me, and I wouldn't participate. So --
CARRINGTON: How are we doing on tape? Who was your lawyer for that?
HARRIS: Dorlan, Jordan, Holt and Dorley. Jordan, Holt and Dorley. And I understand that both Jordan -- I mean Dorley and Holt are now in California. Jordan died later. He later became a member of the city council in Norfolk.
CARRINGTON: Tell me about your experience with the Allied Chemical job discrimination suit.
HARRIS: In -- I had taken a job at Allied Chemical. With my two years college, you would assume that I would get a job better than a janitor, but the rule was that you could not take a job beyond a janitor, you couldn't be a truck driver, you couldn't be a mechanic, you couldn't be anything beyond a janitor.
CARRINGTON: And this was because of segregation?
HARRIS: That's because of my race. It was a racial discrimination situation. So -- and I knew that when I took the job because I had to have a job. By this time, I am married and I got to feed the family. So I was working and I worked there for 15 years and -- but I was always conscious of the discrimination that was going on, and I was not able to do anything until the president gave an executive order there will be no more discrimination where there are government contracts.
CARRINGTON: Now which president was that?
HARRIS: I can't remember.
CARRINGTON: Was it Johnson?
HARRIS: It might have been -- it certainly was not the Republicans.
CARRINGTON: Okay. So they couldn't discriminate with government contracts?
HARRIS: Yes. And when I found out that -- that the Allied Chemical had government contracts, I didn't really know all of the information, but I had enough to threaten them. They thought I knew more than I knew, so then I filed a suit against Allied Chemical. And it took a long time to make that -- make it happen. In fact, I had finally left the plant but I continued to work with the employees and we won the case, and they gave a settlement of $250,000 distributed among the employees.
Of course, that was a big settlement at that time. And of course they had to prove -- I mean they had to -- said that they are not going to do it again and give African Americans a fair shake. And a lot of things changed. African Americans began to be contract -- doing other jobs in the plant, even including truck drivers and corporate -- others, they had other jobs in the plant also as operators. And then finally they hired a couple of African American women in the main office as secretaries, so that was the handle -- that's the way we handled that.
Lawyer Henry Marsh and Tucker, and Oliver Hill were our lawyers when we had that -- handled that situation, and when we won the case they had a contract -- had -- when they did the -- when they brought the money it was already in envelopes to everybody, and they had to figure out how much everyone was supposed to get. I was left -- I had left the plant so of course I was not entitled to any of the money, but by this time I'm pastoring at Union Baptist Church and so the lawyer came and brought the money in my church, and we called the name and gave everybody what they were supposed to get, the money. And Judge -- Judge Benton, the state supreme court judge now, but he was the lawyer in the case that brought the money from Henry and Tucker and Hill's law firm, and he distributed the money, and some people didn't know about it ahead of time, and so they had to go to their office to get their check, so everybody got their check.
CARRINGTON: Great story. Now, you were a member of Hopewell City Council and became mayor. Tell me how you got elected and being mayor of Hopewell, some of the challenges you faced as an African American politician.
HARRIS: I ran for city council.
CARRINGTON: What year was that, what time? When did you start?
HARRIS: I started in the early sixties. I ran seven times and lost. In the mean time I was running for other offices, like the state legislature and one time I was running for -- against Peck Gray who was a senator, and Ben Ragsdale was my campaign manager, and we were -- we tried to unseat Peck Gray, but we were not successful. So I went to -- tried to working at it almost full time. And what else is coming up, I am running. So I ran for congressional office, for the state legislature, and I ran for the city council, for the city council seven times, and I was not able to succeed. I started to run for members -- for -- I started to running -- I started to run for elected offices before the Voting Rights Act was adopted. In some cases I knew that I was not going to win the election, but every time I ran, more African Americans became involved and became registered voters, so that was some of the reasons why I was running.
Finally, after we got the Voting Rights Act, then I started to run seriously, but I could not win in spite of my efforts. By this time I picked up a few white votes when I would run. But we had [an] at-large system, and I couldn't win with the at-large system. By this time, the population, African American population, had increased, but it still was not enough, plus we were isolated in the black community, so every time when I would run and then they -- with the at-large election I could not get enough votes because they would -- the system would not allow me to have enough and I would have enough -- I would have mostly black votes.
CARRINGTON: Hold one second. Let's change tapes.
[Tapes changed]
CARRINGTON: In your bid to win elections you said that it was basically stacked against you because of the way that the election was set up, the system. How did the ACLU help you? What was the mechanism that they used to help you?
HARRIS: The ACLU in Richmond started to help me, and we were helping other jurisdictions to deal with the at-large system. In all my efforts to get on the city council, the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights had had a study made, and they had jurisdictions like Hopewell to be -- they involved them to try to find out why Curtis Harris couldn't get elected to the city council, and why he couldn't get elected to congress, and why he didn't get elected to the state legislature, and the study showed that it was because I was African American and would not yield to the ideas of the white community.
So the Commission caused -- asked the city council, the mayor, to respond to their question why Curtis Harris didn't get elected. So the mayor, with some help of the city attorney, said that Curtis Harris cannot get elected because he -- they had a term, I forgot, but -- term that they were using, but is not fit to be a member of the city council. And so I have a book from the Commission with that letter in it, so -- and I know the former mayor, who is still a racist, he lost his election and I became elected to the city council. And I had a chance to tell him, his name is Mr. Blunt, I said Tom, you lied. You said that I was not fit to be a member of the city council, and now I am on the council and you are not on the council you lost your elections. And then later on I became the mayor, I called him again, I said Tom, you lied. I said, not only am I on the council, I am the mayor of the city now, and he played it off as a joke.
And I'm going to get back to what you are asking me about ACLU's involvement in it but for ten years I tried to get the city council to allow me to put a statue of Martin Luther King in the plaza downtown in Hopewell, and they turned it off -- turned it down. And finally they tried to put something else in the plaza ten years later, and I remember, and I would not agree, so the council was embarrassed, and of course some of the members of council had changed then, so they agreed to let us put a statue of Martin Luther King on the plaza.
We still haven't finished with it yet, but we tried to get some money from the John Randolph Foundation, and Blunt is the President of the Grant Committee of the Foundation, and we did not get the grant. And when I started to investigate, Blunt showed up again. And now we are fighting with him again and -- but by this time we have two black women that's on the foundation now so we're going to have a big fight going on with that. We're going to put that statute [statue] in the plaza. If we can't put it in the plaza, we're going to put up a statute [statue] to Martin Luther King if I have to put it in my yard.
But in the mean time, the ACLU came to our rescue because we didn't have the money, and we had waited ten years after the act had been -- became law on -- and we said well, listen, it's something wrong because we have this at-large elections, said, you will never get elected. So the ACLU took on our case and filed suit in the federal district court, and it took a year.
And immediately after I filed the suit the white people in Hopewell found an African American to run, and nobody has ever run for city council before except me. When we filed the suit they found an African American to run, and he was elected and got 80 percent of the vote in an at-large elections.
CARRINGTON: How did they change the system -- I mean, how did you change the system? You had an at-large; what was the remedy that you were seeking?
HARRIS: Well, what happened, what happened, and we were in court, and they elected an African American hoping that that we'll go away, that the law would protect them, now we got us an African American, so they can't say that we wouldn't allow African Americans to be elected. So -- and we were still in court, and the African American that they elected two years later, they made him vice mayor of the city. And my suit, case is still pending in court, and a case came up in Alabama, I believe, that gave some late light on our case, and they realized that they couldn't handle -- couldn't win the case for us, against us, so we agreed for a compromise in the court, and the compromise was to let me have a ward, went into the ward system, and see, there are seven people on the council, so they had five wards and two at-large seats. And so when they got ready to make it for the -- what I was looking for, I said, okay, you draw a circle around me and you will have majority of the African Americans. And when that happened, I had 75 percent of the black community, and I won. But in spite of that, the white community, and I'm not talking about the whole community, I'm talking about those who were trying to do us under, they found an African American to run against me. The guy who won the first election as a black man, he said, I don't want to be in the ward with Curtis Harris, said, give me another ward. So he chose a ward that was 20 percent African American, and he thought that 80 percent that he got in the at-large election, that he was now -- and he's a vice mayor, so you know, he's cooking on gas, but it turns out that they turned him out of office, the white people got another person in that ward to run against him and he lost. He made one term and he lost. By this time, we have lost -- we have won the case and I was running and he was running, and I won, and he lost.
So the city attorney said to me, said what -- I said, tell me, what is going on in the white community, what do they say? And because he's kind of a friendly fellow. He said, you want me to tell you what the white people are saying? I said, yes. I'll tell you -- I want to -- I want you to tell me what the white people are saying. When the white people realized that I was going to win or the black guy that they put against me was going to win, and the guy that had been the mayor was running, so they are going to end up and have at least two African Americans on the city council, they couldn't stand that. So Carl, Carl -- attorney -- Turner -- he's our city attorney, he said, since you asked me, I'll tell you what white people are saying. White people are saying one nigger is enough.
So and it turned out that way, I end up with 75 percent of the votes, and that was 16 years ago. I've been on the council ever since. But after some years passed, I realized that the black community was getting blacker, and so we need to change the formula. First of all, we want at-large elections thrown out altogether. We want the seven wards. And when you do that and we can get two more -- one more African American on the council. And they fought that.
And I threatened to take them to court again, and they hired a lawyer to tell them what chance I had -- they had to win against me if I go back to court again. And the lawyer did some research and gave him -- gave them the report. And the report was that they would have less than a 25 percent chance to win against me. So that's how the council agreed to have all ward system, and we had another ward.
Now, by this time, I'm no longer 75 percent. I gave up some of my percentage so that I could have 64 percent and the other ward would be 63 percent, so we elected another black to council, and he's never had no opposition in six years. And he is now the mayor of the city.
CARRINGTON: Let me go back a little bit. I want to go back to the sixties a little bit. I understand that you had a situation in front of Hopewell City Hall where you and the Klu Klux Klan had an experience. Can you tell me about that?
HARRIS: Yeah. Yeah. I can talk to you about that, but let me tell you first that when I was talking about the -- my role on the city council that I did become the mayor of the city, and the members of the council elected me -- selected me at large -- I mean without any opposition. They -- so I became the mayor of the City of Hopewell, and people are still talking about how that happened with my record.
CARRINGTON: How did it happen?
HARRIS: Well, there were two African Americans on the council, five white persons on the council. The fellow that had already been mayor for four years, he wanted to run again to be the mayor. We had one real racist on the council, but he didn't like the white person who was running, so he called me up and told me that if I wanted to be the mayor he would support me.
Now that was -- sent some shock waves through me, but that's what he said. And the African American said he would support me, and I said I would support me, so I didn't need but one more vote. And another person who wanted to be vice mayor said he would support me if he could just be the vice mayor. So that was four votes. And when I had four votes, that's all I needed, so when they found out that I had four votes, they agreed to make it unanimous. So that's how I got to be the mayor of the city. So I served four years.
And then I recommended when my time was up that the fellow who wanted to be vice mayor, I recommended him to be the mayor the next time so he served two years. And he and I fell out on politics -- on policies, and then when he -- his time ran out, he was no longer -- he was not re-elected. So the black guy who was serving as vice mayor, it was his time to run for mayor, and he's the mayor now. So that's how the -- how that ran out.
But the other question that you were asking me regarding the Klu Klux Klan --
CARRINGTON: Yes, in Hopewell.
HARRIS: I was really surprised that the Klu Klux Klan would come to Hopewell. I was not -- they had already done some things to me, but I didn't know -- like throwing through my window and stuff.
CARRINGTON: Yes. Tell me some of the stuff that they had done.
HARRIS: But I didn't know it was the Klu Klux Klan.
CARRINGTON: What were some of the things? You said they threw bricks in your window. What else did they do?
HARRIS: Well, they threw a Molotov cocktail through my living room window. And I had a business next door to my house, and they threw Molotov cocktail into the window of that business, also. And when I questioned, when I complained about it, the city -- the mayor -- the chief of police said, Curtis Harris ought to expect that.
And he was talking to the United Press International, and when -- and they blew that up, and he tried to get out of it, but they wouldn't let him out of it, so it went all over the country. And so I asked the governor for some assistance, and the governor sent a letter saying that he was -- they are investigating, but they've never made report on the investigation.
CARRINGTON: What was the reason for the confrontation in Hopewell City Council?
HARRIS: Well, the city was preparing to build a landfill in the African American community.
CARRINGTON: This is in the sixties?
HARRIS: Yes. And I opposed that, because they call it landfill, I call it a dump. And so I -- we did a lot of work on that, and it turned out that they are going to -- they are going to build it anyway. They tried to find a way to get to it without going through the African American community, but it would cost them too much, so they decided they are going to go on through the African American community.
So I then tried to get a group to go to City Hall and protest and send -- and give them a letter for our protest. And that was going along pretty good. I was getting a group together, and we set a date when we are going to -- and we're going to start the march at the dump, and go from the dump down to city hall. I guess it is about two and a half miles, maybe three miles, and -- but our folk didn't show up that was supposed to march with me, except a few. So I looked, I didn't have but about 14 people.
And the vity manager had put the police officers on alert, and those who were supposed to get off, they had to stay. So I was -- the time was running out. So the city attorney -- city manager and one of the police officers came down to the dump to find out whether or not we're going to march because we got to let these police officers go home because they are on overtime.
And I was stalling, hoping that some more are going to come. Somebody came down to the entrance to the dump, fellow in a cab, and he was very, very excited. He said, don't go downtown.
And I said, well, why?
He said, the Klu Klux Klan is downtown, so you can't -- don't go downtown, said they are waiting for you. And because I am like I am, I said, well, you know, I don't want to disappoint the Klu Klux Klan. I got to go. I got to go -- I got to go downtown. So that's when we started to march. We only had 14 people. And I don't march on sidewalks. If you are going -- if you are going to make me walk on the sidewalk, there ain't going to be no march, and I said I'm going to walk in the street. So I marched, and all the people that we were passing by, we were beckoning them to join the march. But by the time we got downtown, we had 45 people in the march, and the Klu Klux Klan was waiting for us at city hall. It was about 35 or 40 of them. And they had on the robes and even had some children with robes on, too.
So we went to the city hall, and of course when the police saw us coming they spreaded the Klu Klux Klan on both sides of the walkway so that we could go through in front of them. So we went to the city hall and stood on the steps. The Klu Klux Klan was flanked on both sides. And we -- then we waited. We went into the city hall, and the city attorney -- the city manager was waiting for us, and I delivered the paper to him. And he had the door locked into city hall so nobody could get in. So they let me in, and a couple people with me, and they allowed me to serve that paper on the city manager.
And then I came out, and then we started to sing some civil rights songs, and the Klu Klux Klan drowned us out, and they were chanting "Never, never, never...," and just kept going, saying that. And they drowned out all our voices. So we then turned around and started to kneel on the steps with our back to the Klu Klux Klan, and I said I wanted to pray.
One of the Klu Klux Klan man said, every man ought to have a chance to pray, and they shut up. And I did the prayer -- praying. And I had a long prayer. And after I got through praying, the Klu Klux preacher started to pray, and then he prayed. When he got through praying, we turned around and stood up, and they filed away one by one. They never said no more words. And we -- then we had -- we were interested in marching, showing off, so we marched from city hall figuring that we had won a victory and marched all the way back to the church and with the police stopping the traffic for us. But the Klu Klux Klan never showed up again.
CARRINGTON: You put up an interesting topic. What was the role of the church in the Civil Rights movement in Virginia?
HARRIS: Well, some churches -- our church, Union Baptist Church, was involved with the Civil Rights movement fully. And I was not the pastor of the church when we started the movement. There's an older man who lived in Dewitt, and he would come to preach for us every Sunday, but he would like come to the mass meetings and so he was an activist.
So later on when I was jailed and some 75 people in Hopewell were jailed with the sit-in movement, situation, we found out that we didn't have but one church that we could have a mass meeting in, and that was at Union Baptist. And the other churches stayed away from it. But some of their members were involved. Some of them were -- went to jail and so forth.
So like Martin Luther King, if you come to find out -- if you check the record, that not all of the ministers was on his side, for different reasons; some of them was fear, some of them didn't read the Bible that way, so they went away into another sphere of their operations, and thinking that after awhile the Lord will take care of it, and I believe that the Lord will take care of it, but I want to help the Lord. And so that's why I went to jail and got beaten -- bit by dogs and so forth, and because I was trying to help the Lord. The Lord didn't need me, but I was trying to help.
CARRINGTON: The kids who are watching this today, what would be some of your advice to them to help -- to get them to continue what the movement started because the job is not finished?
HARRIS: The children will not be able to do anything because they have already been put into a situation so that they will not be able to do anything. For instance, their parent is more involved than the children, and the involvement of the parent is fear. Say we're not going to get involved because I got my house payment, I got my automobile payment, and I got a position with the man, therefore, we're not even going to discuss your involvement in the movement, talking to the children, so that's why the children are as they are. I, in Black History Month that just passed, I set up a system so that our children could see the Eyes On The Prize [PBS Documentary], and I brought it to the church so that they could see what happened, and tried to explain to them that it could happen again. I couldn't get many children to come.
Now, if I had had some other activity the children would have been, the parents would have been, but the parents is not interested in the Eyes On The Prize, therefore, the children not interested, either. So it's not just about the children. It's about the parents.
And I'm thinking that unless -- and we may be coming up to it now, because the conservatives that's in the power now in the legislature, and in the judgeships, they are turning it all the way around, and nobody wants to confront them. So the children may find another way, not the way that my generation did, the children may find another way, and some people feeling -- telling them to -- well, get you some education, and nobody can't take your education away from you, but they tell me that a whole lot of Ph.D.'s, they ain't got jobs, so I don't know that -- they may not take your job away, but they will give you a job that's not comparable with your educational pieces. Therefore, I'm thinking that something needs to be done to strengthen the will of African American children, the will to do what needs to be done so that they can get out of the box.
We're still in a box. And you know, that's the only way I can style it, and if we can't -- if we don't ever get out of the box, we are never going to go anywhere. I'm talking about by and large. There may be, you know, a few slipping through, but by and large, we're in a box.
CARRINGTON: Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.
HARRIS: All right. You all finished?
CARRINGTON: Yes.
HARRIS: Okay.
CARRINGTON: We went about an hour.
HARRIS: Okay.
