Grace E. Harris interview 2 (2007-05-02)

              Final edit Sept 2009
Edited transcription of oral history interview with
Dr. Grace E. Harris conducted by Betsy Brinson, May 2, 2007.
This was the second of two interviews with Dr. Harris conducted though an initiative by VCU Libraries‟ Special Collections and Archives. The first interview was conducted by Kathryn Colwell Hill on November 29, 2006. The transcription of that interview was done by Hill.
This transcript includes some transcription by VCU graduate students from Dr. John Kneebone‟s graduate level history class on Oral History, Fall 2007. That work includes transcription by Dr. Kneebone. In March of 2008, Ray Bonis, a staff member in Special Collections and Archives, compiled and edited the various transcripts into one document.
The audio for both interviews with Dr. Harris is housed in Special Collections and Archives.
Betsy Brinson, Ph.D., interviewer, is a public historian with a specialty in oral history. .At Virginia Commonwealth University she has been a student, a teacher and a faculty administrator.
Her oral history awards include the Award of Merit from the American Association of State and Local History in 2002 and the Elizabeth B. Mason Project Award in 2004 from the Oral History Association. 2
Dr. Grace E. Harris, narrator, has had a 40-year career at Virginia Commonwealth University. She rose from the ranks as a social work professor to become Dean of the School of Social Work, then Vice Provost for Continuing Studies and Public service. When she retired in 1999 as the Provost and Vice President for Academic Affairs, she had twice served as Acting President of the University.
Harris (1933-) is a native of Halifax County. She received her undergraduate degree from Hampton Institute, which is now Hampton University. When Harris first applied for admission to Richmond Professional Institute‟s School of Social Work graduate program in 1954, she was denied admission because of her race and the Commonwealth of Virginia paid for her to attend Boston University instead. After attending Boston University for one year, she transferred to Richmond Professional Institute and received her Master‟s of Social Work in 1960. She then earned her doctorate and master‟s degrees in sociology from the University of Virginia.
She became one of the first three African American faculty members hired by Richmond Professional Institute in 1967 when she became a member of the faculty of the School of Social Work. In 1982 she was named Dean of the School of Social Work and became Provost of the University in 1993. Twice, she briefly served as interim president of Virginia Commonwealth University in the 1990s. She retired from VCU as Provost in 1999 but continued to serve as a faculty leader of the Grace E. Harris Leadership Institute – a program designed to strengthen the leadership capacity among VCU faculty and staff. In December of 2007 the former School of Business building at 1015 Floyd Ave. was named the Grace E. Harris Hall. Harris and her husband, James W. “Dick” Harris, have two adult children and one grandson.
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Betsy Brinson (BB), interviewer: Today is May second, the year 2007.
This is an interview with Dr. Grace Harris. The interview takes place in the Cabell Library at Virginia Commonwealth University, and the interviewer is Betsy Brinson.
BB: Thank you very much for agreeing to talk with me today,
Grace. Would you give me so I can get a voice level here your full name, date, and place of birth.
Grace E. Harris (GH), narrator: Of course. My full name is Grace
Edmondson Harris and, uh, my birth date is July 1st 1933. Was there another question?
BB: And that makes you how old today?
GH: Seventy-three.
BB: Almost coming up on another birthday.
GH: Almost seventy-four. Right.
BB: Okay.
BB: Well, this is a continuation of the first interview that you did in
November of 2006, and there are a few questions from that interview that I want to go back and ask you just to give me a little bit more detail about them, if you would.
GH: Oh, of course.
BB: I remember that after college you applied to the all
white Richmond Professional Institute in 1954, and, of course that was the year of the Brown decision before the Supreme Court. 4
GH: Right, right.
BB: And I wonder what prompted you to apply then?
GH: Well, that was the year of my graduation from college. I completed
my undergraduate degree at Hampton Institute, it was then, now Hampton University, and my major in college was sociology, and my career goal was to go into social work. And, of course, I knew about Richmond Professional Institute and its very well known School of Social Work, and thought it would be the place I wanted to go because my husband and I got married that summer. We were college sweethearts, and we married in July, and it was just the natural thing to do, to come to Richmond rather than to go out of state. So, those were some of the things that entered into my interest in graduate work at RPI.
BB: And what happened with your application?
GH: Well, I met with the dean, at that time the head person was called
the director of the school of social work and thought it would be a good idea to have that meeting as well as send my application in advance to know more about the school. And he informed me in person that because of the laws of the state that at that point I would not be considered so that the interesting part of the story though is that after that I applied to Boston University for graduate work, and Boston University asked him to interview me to go to school there. And, so I saw him a second time. And he concluded that session by saying, “I wish I could take you here.” So, that was how that happened. And it worked out that I did go that first year to Boston University and entered the master‟s program. The MSW degree is a two-year program. And, I came back to Virginia after one year, as I 5
said I was married then and decided I would not go back to Boston. But I did enter RPI, School of Social Work in the fall of ‟59 and actually received my MSW degree in spring of 1960. So, that‟s that story. In a nutshell. [laughs]
BB: In a nutshell. So, it was a personal decision that really
prompted you to try and stay here, both when you applied and later on. It wasn‟t an impetus from the Brown decision, for example, or …?
GH: No. It was a personal decision, and the reputation of the School of
Social Work, which was the oldest school in the South, and was started on the basis of the same kind of interests I had of community outreach and involvement with people who were returning after World War I. Therefore, the whole effort of the school was to build, and be helpful and to make the community a better place. So all those things were in keeping with what I wanted to do.
BB: I know that in 1954 I don‟t believe that there was any black
graduate education offered through public institutions and the state had an arrangement where they would assist African American graduate students at other schools out of the state.
GH: Correct.
BB: With a stipend of some sort.
GH: Right, I had that stipend, and I laugh now and say I made more
money than I did for many more years after that as a practicing social worker because I had a scholarship from the United Negro Scholarship Fund and, a scholarship from an organization that my father was a member of, and then the 6
out-of-state money as well. Plus I worked in the dormitory because I was a resident hall leader, whatever they‟re called.
BB: Like a resident advisor?
GH: Yes, yes. And I was being paid by Boston University, as well, so
the [laughs] So those were the positive sides
BB: I recall that Martin Luther King was at Boston University while you were there?
GH: Yes
BB: And I wonder if you ever met him?
GH: Yes, I did. In fact, the theology program at Boston
University was very well known at that time and a remarkable theologian who was head of the department there often had the black students to meet in his home and served as a kind of advisor to many of us, so on those occasions I did meet Martin Luther King, and he was like all the rest of us, a struggling student! [laughs] But his ideas were being formed in those early years also.
BB: So you would have followed him with more of a personal interest…?
GH: Exactly, exactly
BB: Well, that‟s nice.
GH: Howard Thurman, I was trying to remember his name, was the
chaplain at, Howard Thurman, I don‟t know if you know his name
BB: I do, yes.
GH: Yes, so, that was, on the intellectual side, a very good part of that 7
experience.
BB: I was interested, too, that in the ‟70s you did your dissertation on E.
Franklin Frazier.
GH: Yes, I did.
BB: And did you ever meet him?
GH: No, I didn‟t. He was deceased at the time when
did my work, but I did meet his wife, and she was living in Washington, D.C., at the time. I visited with her on several occasions to talk about him and his life. And, she let me borrow a number of his books, which were really the original manuscripts and that was quite a nice thing to happen. He also had a niece who was on the faculty at Virginia State College and I met with her and interviewed her for my work.
BB: I wonder if there were lessons about leadership that you learned
from your research on him?
GH: Hmm, that‟s an interesting question. I guess one of the lessons
that I continue to try to pass on to the participants in the various training sessions we have is that of preparation, that one talks about being a leader because of experience and kind-of built-in characteristics but I always add that other dimension of being prepared when you have an assignment or if you are teaching to be prepared when you go in the classroom; whatever the position is that one needs to have the facts and integrate those facts into one‟s own belief system so that the commitment is not just the belief system but based on some knowledge as well. 8
BB: My sense though is that you have been pretty prepared all your life …?
GH: [laughs] I try.
BB: And I wonder is there anything about E. Franklin Frazier‟ personality or his thinking that would have helped you think about your own leadership style, beyond being prepared?
GH: Well, I think his commitment to deal with issues, contemporary
issues of social concerns, in his academic background was very strong, the work that he did in Chicago just seemed to resonate with me as the type person I wanted to be like … To deal with the social issues and problems of the day.
BB: I was interested to see that he actually taught at St. Paul‟s in
Lawrenceville, Virginia, years ago, before you were even born, I think.
GH: I am surprised. I had not come across that. My focus was primarily on his work, his writings, but I‟m surprised I did not come across that fact. That‟s good to know after all these years.
BB: Well, I don‟t know how long he was actually there.
BB: Grace, I wanted to ask you to talk a little about what it was like
for you at VCU in the ‟60‟s and ‟70‟s as an African American faculty member. And, I‟m interested not only in attitudes and behaviors that you had to deal with but kinds of courses that you taught. I know you taught some in the classroom, some in the community. What were the challenges here for you then?
GH: I‟ve been asked that question a lot, and as I thought about it, I 9
think I was probably like any beginning teacher, faculty member, I don‟t think of the race piece as a big piece of my teaching years, and even in the early years of becoming accustomed to being a faculty member and learning the university and getting to know students and working with other faculty and on curriculum issues. It was really the role, learning the role of a faculty member, knowing the university, getting involved, and being on committees, as I am sure you are aware that‟s a big part of institutional life. So I guess the biggest challenge was probably, becoming a dean, more so than a faculty member, because there you had fellow faculty members, we all worked together, and in social work education a lot of work takes place at the committee level. The courses I taught were the same as other faculty. I taught courses in human behavior and development and courses in what we called macro-community organization kind of courses, the clinical courses, across the board really, because the specialty areas were not so specialized that one could not cut across various departmental lines. So, I got to know a lot of faculty members in other schools and departments as well because I was on a lot of university-wide committees.
BB: Well, that leads me to ask you, given that ‟60‟s were the ‟60‟s..
GH: Yes.
BB: … what was the university like in the ‟60‟s?
GH: Well, it was the late ‟60‟s when I came in 1967, and I guess the
most difficult time for all of us was some of the student unrest that was permeating higher education across the country, but I remember specifically that the Kent University situation probably had the largest impact on VCU, with 10
disruption and uncertainty and students not knowing what position we should take as a faculty, especially in the School of Social Work. And, we had to deal with those issues a lot during that period. I think that the university was in a stage of learning to be a university and also, learning to be a university in the sense of the two campuses, when, during the years that we merged [and] we became Virginia Commonwealth University.
BB: Talk about your tenure as Dean of the School of Social Work, that was, I believe, 1982 to 1990?
GH: That‟s right.
BB: What were the challenges here?
GH: Oh, my goodness.
BB: At that point in time, for you and for the university.
GH: Right. I think, on several levels, within the school the challenge
was for an insider to become the dean, and dealing with the issues related to some faculty, individuals not fully accepting that. So it was building a school that became one school. There were a lot of super stars in the school at that time who had been recruited by the former dean, and who brought great knowledge and experience but didn‟t always bring the ability to come together as a team, so making that happen was truly a challenge, and bringing people together in working on the growth and development of the school and not of one‟s individual areas of expertise. Those were things that come to my mind. And, also, becoming recognized within the university, because professional schools, historically, have been prone to be not as integrated into the university as one 11
might want, or as the arts and sciences, the humanities and sciences have. So that was a challenge that I worked hard to make happen, and I think that‟s why I served on so many committees [laughs] and encouraged my faculty to do that. The other thing that comes to my mind is recognition of the school on a national level. Some of that had begun, very well, under the leadership of Elaine Rothenberg, the dean before me, but I continued with a lot of activity at the national level to make our school better known, and to have a ranking nationally that was among the top in the country. So, those were some of the things that I worked hard to make happen.
BB: When you look back now, though, were there things there that
you wish that maybe you had done a little differently, or worked out a little differently than you planned?
GH: As I think back on it, we had a lot of growth and a lot
of continuation of some of the things that Elaine had started, for example, the off campus programs. I wonder if we did too much sometimes too soon because we continued that growth in Northern Virginia and in the southwestern part of the state, that took a lot of resources and a lot of effort with faculty to convince them that it was the right thing to do. That‟s one thing now, that I think back, I might have done at a slower pace. We were also getting involved with starting a Ph.D. program. And, at that point undergraduate social work education became very popular throughout the country so we were starting an undergraduate major in social work, as well as a one-year program in social work, so it was for the master‟s level, that was if a person had completed undergraduate with a major in 12
social work they could come into the master‟s program for one year and a summer, I believe it was. So, at any rate, we did a lot, and, as I think back, maybe things might have gone at a slower pace.
BB: Well, with a lot going on, at the peak of it, would you be, I‟m not
looking for numbers here, but just how large of a faculty was it? And, how many students were you dealing with?
GH: Right. And gosh, I guess our faculty at that time was probably
thirty to forty people, and, we used a lot of adjunct faculty as well. People from the community and a lot of what we called field instructors to supervise the practicum, so the numbers of people involved were much larger, but the full time, permanent, faculty was probably in the thirties, and that was a lot. There were a lot of students too, the student population totally we probably were three or four hundred if you counted undergraduate, masters, and off-campus.
BB: We‟re going to move forward and talk a little bit about your
being vice-provost here. I‟m guessing that as vice-provost you were both the first woman in this position as well as the first African American?
GH: Oh, I‟m pretty sure [laughs] at least since 1968.
BB: Right, right. Talk about that, if you will. What were the
challenges for you as a woman and what were the challenges for you as a person of color?
GH: Well, I tell everybody that that was the best job that I had at
VCU, at RPI VCU. And, I loved it because I really had gotten to the point where I was really confident in my role as an administrator. So, I felt comfortable in the 13
job. I also loved the fact that I had a lot of freedom to develop new programs. That was the first job with Gene Trani as president. In fact, he tells everybody I was his first hire, which I think I was. „Cause he actually interviewed me before he came to VCU as president. He had been appointed, but that was in March. We met early on a Saturday morning, and I told him I didn‟t like to get up early and especially not on a Saturday morning. The search had been underway, and he had to make the decision. So, he told me he wanted me to be the vice provost, and I was one of the finalists, right, so he had to make that decision. But, actually, I don‟t recall any serious issues about race or gender in the job. I was here, I was known in the university, I was known in the community. So, in those ways, I can truthfully say it was a great job because it brought community and university together, and that was President Trani‟s goal when he came, to really be a university very much involved in the community. So, that was a way for me to help him, and help the program and enjoy what I was doing
BB: A good match.
GH: Yes, it was.
BB: In the earlier interview you mentioned developing programs with the
Carver community ..?
GH: Yes.
BB: Oregon Hill, and MCV. I wonder if you could just talk more
about each one of those programs. What were they all about and what did they want to accomplish?
GH: Yes, I think that first and foremost we set up community 14
groups, advisory bodies, and I met with those advisory bodies on a number of occasions to talk about the goals of the university, to ask for their comments and input. We also established certain programs, for example, when this continued through the years. When a lot of building was going on along Broad Street, we made sure that community people knew about what was coming and knew that they could be involved in special programs, invited teenagers to make use of the recreational athletic programs.
BB: Teenagers from the …?
GH: Teenagers from the Carver community, right. And these advisory
groups had regular meetings and I met with the alumni on occasions. So that was the community outreach part. Also one of the programs in the division at that time was what we called Community Services Associates. A faculty member could be released of a course in order to do a special project in the community, and some excellent kinds of activities came out of that, with faculty members working with schools, with the churches, helping businesses, so that was a very wonderful success. The other thing it did was with the research effort trying to get more information about communities, about the kinds of activities those people would like in their communities. It was truly the effort to make VCU a part of the community, and to have people see the university as a resource, so that it was not going in with programs that we necessarily designed but my thesis in all that was to try to bring the community and the university together and decide together what that particular community needed. So, those were exciting times, and we 15
had summer projects for kids, and summer discovery programs, we called it. We tried to be innovative and creative and helpful at the same time.
BB: Well, I was living here at the time and I remember reading articles.
GH: Oh, really.
BB: And talking to faculty and to people and it just sounded like very
good things were happening here. What about Oregon Hill? Oregon Hill has a different history with VCU because of historic preservation.
GH: Yes. And it‟s come to fore again (laughs), as I read in the
paper recently. Yeah, that was one of our most difficult experiences, but I know that Dr. Trani again was committed to trying to work with the neighborhood and to bring people on board. We had advisory groups that represented the Oregon Hill community, and we met with them regularly, and tried to make them feel a part of the university rather than a part of the attack by the university, that was certainly not the desire of the university. Eventually, I think, with the establishing of the advisory groups, various activities in the community, that people came around.
BB: So there were similar models form the Carver project ?
GH: Yes, absolutely, but with their own distinct interest, and we worked more with the schools, I think, in the Oregon Hill area, and with some of the businesses, we brought people along. But there were some individuals who were not as readyI 16
give in on what they thought should be much, much less involvement of the university. But I think over time a lot of that has changed, except for this recent incident.
BB: Right. I remember, too, with the Jacob House
GH: Oh, yes, yes.
BB: In the parking lot, I guess, of the new Engineering [Building} …?
GH: Yes.
BB: At the time the university elected to move it across the street.
GH: Right. Those were trying times. I remember one period in the
whole development of the engineering school, Dr. Trani was on sabbatical, and I was acting president, and we were involved in the Jacob House controversy (laughs). One of the fundraising efforts for the engineering school was to get the support of the local governments. So the City Council of Richmond was meeting during the period I was acting president and I had to make the presentation about our desire to be at that location, about the Jacob House. That‟s a time when I really relied on being well prepared, and offered my suggestion of taking some of the brick from the Jacob House and putting in the engineering school building, so I don‟t know where that brick is now (laughs) but it‟s in some spot with the engineering school. So that was something they liked
BB: I have to stop and turn my tape over here. [29:19]
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Other side of tape..
BB: Side two, of the interview with Grace Harris, and we were just talking about the building of the engineering school where the Jacob House was, but I think there was a happy ending and the Jacob House got moved across the street …
GH: Right
BB: … and is now the home of the Oregon Hill Home Improvement
Association.
GH: Yes
BB: They know how to preserve it and take care of it
GH: Right. So I think that the effort to communicate with one another
and to try to find resolutions to an issue that did have some strong feelings, and it did turn out I think to be an acceptable solution
BB: The third program that you referenced in the earlier interview
was at MCV. Can you talk more about the effort there, in terms of your role and the University‟s to develop more of a program with MCV? You had two campuses, of course, very different campuses, and I believe this too would have been during your years as the vice provost.
GH: Right. Well, clearly, the president‟s goal as president was to
continue the growth and development of both campuses into one university. Much of the efforts in, for example, having meetings, all the deans were to meet together under my leadership as provost. When the president was on sabbatical I 19
recall in a board meeting one individual asking who would be responsible for the hospital and the MCV campus while he was away and the president clearly said in that board meeting, “The lady on my right.” So, there were just those little ways, on the president‟s part and on my part to trying to bring the two institutions together as one. And I would clearly say at this point we are one university. There are probably some persons in the community who would still want the MCV designation more clearly, more obviously known throughout. But I was in a session just last week, one of my leadership programs, and one of the vice presidents was talking about the MCV campus to some extent, and he was so clear in his concept of one university and the contribution of all of the units in the university. So I think that during those years there was a lot of groundwork to be done in bringing people together, in serving on committees. I tell the story a lot about a search committee that I was on for a major department on the MCV campus, and the meetings were at 6:30 in the morning, and as I‟ve said before, I‟m not an early person, but I was there, every time at 6:30 until someone finally, somebody else said, “Can‟t we meet at 7:30?” (laughs) But, you just have to pay your dues and do what has to be done to bring people together, and I think that‟s what it was more than anything else, bringing people together, and then some of the sense of separation vanished over time.
BB: I remember when all of that took place. And, I remember a lot of
alumni of MCV being upset. It‟s always going to be MCV, you know. But that was sort of anecdotal evidence, and I wonder, did the alumni ever make themselves heard on that issue within the university that you recall? 20
GH: Yes
BB: Did you have to deal with that?
GH: Yes that was clearly part of the process that took place and part of the willingness of the university administration to recognize the strong feelings of the MCV Alumni Association. To this day I believe I am correct that the Alumni Association continues in name as the MCV Alumni Association and there are ways that that reference is made whenever it seems appropriate so I think the the early years of discontent around there have faded.
BB: I‟m reminded of Randolph Macon Women‟s College in Lynchburg.
GH: Yes.
BB: Is dealing with a somewhat similar…
GH: Yes.
BB: Issue now that they‟ve always been a women‟s college and I think as of July they are now co-ed.
GH: Right.
BB: They are changing the name taking women out of their name and a lot of very upset alumni and students. Would you like to give them any advice based on the VCU experience?
GH: Well, I just think time has to occur and with the passage of time some of those issues seem less important. People become more accustomed to the new experience and often the intent certainly is that it‟s a better experience and I would say that in the MCV situation certainly, as we‟ve grown and developed as a university that there is much pride by the MCV faculty and staff 21
that they are a part of a major university now. Time has changed a lot of the feelings in that one can be proud of the accomplishments we‟ve made as one institution. So the only advice I would have is you have to live through it. (laughs)
BB: Well I asked you earlier to describe a little of the culture in the sixties. Could you do that for the eighties too? What were the issues then for VCU?
GH: Oh my goodness. I was the dean of Social Work in the eighties.
BB: Right. Were there changes in the student body?
GH: I„ve tried to think what the students were like in the eighties when I was dean and what the faculty members were like and as I think back its not with great memory of any major events. Is that the culture of the eighties that you remember? (laughs)
BB: It wasn‟t nearly as out there the way the sixties or seventies were?
GH: No, no. We worked hard. We did our jobs. As I think about the curriculum and the faculty it seems to me we were somewhat introverted, looking at growth of our own program but I don‟t recall any major developments or changes during that period that stand out at this time. We had a good faculty. We were pretty secure in our accreditation in our curriculum. It was a period of pretty much feeling confident, knowing that we knew what we were doing and we came to work and we did it.
BB: You‟ve been here now for a period of years in which you, I‟m guessing, have seen more women and more minorities come as students and also as faculty? 22
GH: That‟s true.
BB: And administrators and what not. I think its hard to look at it decade by decade. I might have been doing you a disservice. Where have the changes been? Who are the student applicants here now as opposed to thirty years ago?
GH: Well, clearly with students we‟ve become much, much larger as I‟m sure you‟ve read and heard and with the diversity of students there‟s been tremendous growth. With the areas of the country, I‟ll start with the state. We have many more students now from northern Virginia and Hampton Roads so that we‟re not known as a local university. We have many more African American students, many more Asian students and it truly is a melting pot if you will. The composition of the board might be another example of the kind of national and well as regional representation of members on the board rather than just a tendency to have local people. One of the commissions I serve on now is the commission that Governor Warner started and now Governor Kaine has continued is a group of us who recommend to the governor a composition of individuals to be appointed to the state colleges and universities boards. And that has been a wonderful experience on our part as well as a gratification on the part of the presidents of the colleges and universities and the governor has been able to make good use of that information. We spend a lot of time in reading materials and soliciting recommendations, sometimes interviewing people. And I think that has been a major contribution that those of us on that commission have offered to the state of Virginia. 23
BB: Was that an entity that came about under Governor Warner?
GH: Yes, Yes.
BB: So it‟s relatively new.
GH: Relatively new, right and I‟ve forgotten how I got to that. (laughs)
BB: You were just talking about looking at the diversity of students.
GH: Yes.
BB: And faculty and boards..
GH: Right, right and I think how I got to that point also was with the new input. From some the board people we get good information about the need to look at issues such as diversity and clearly that has happened. Not just racial diversity but women. The boards were clearly absent of women in many cases and we‟ve given special attention to that need. So that I think most of the major public universities tend have more women students than men but some of the policies that affect women faculty have certainly changed over the years. This whole concept of collateral faculty has allowed more women to come into the teaching ranks than previously.
BB: As I seem to recall some years back, the seventies or I‟m not sure when, there used to be a day care center?
GH: Yes.
BB: That was run by the university?
GH: Right, the School of Education. I think that still exists.
Because I think I heard from some of the staff that the day care program has her child in it. 24
BB: . Well you were acting university president twice?
GH: Yes. (both laugh)
BB: And as a trained social worker, educator, I wonder how it was for you to oversee a large academic and research institution? You were coming out of a professional school and all of a sudden you have a good school of arts, an engineering school, a medical school. How was that for you?
GH: Well, it was not difficult and in fact was rather enjoyable. The fact of the matter is that I had years of experience as the chief administrative officer, if you will, of the School of Social work, of the Division of Continuing Studies and Public Service and as provost, which meant that I actually had some authority over large units within the university. So I saw that position clearly as an interim position but also felt that I was capable of assuming it. And a lot of that was the experience as provost, where I did oversee all of the schools on the academic campus and had some relationship with the schools on the MCV campus via our regular deans meetings and some involvement of pulling people together for issues and working with the president in major meetings such as our school assembly and the university wide council and serving in the provost role as the person to write promotion and tenure reports. And just a lot of university wide interaction. And I knew people as well as programs and that always helps a lot.
BB: You had just a wealth of experience.
GH: Right. And the president had what was called President‟s Council meeting, weekly, so that we did function as a unit around major issues in the university. And I chaired those meetings on occasions when the president was 25
not there and I had chaired the university wide budget committee and when you chaired the budget committee that helps (both laugh) so that you know the experiences as well as the personal contacts and professional relationships. I felt comfortable and capable and really didn‟t have any difficulties. Except that one incident I told you about the man who wanted to know if I would be in charge of the other campus. But that was the other thing. I had the president‟s clear support and people knew that so that.
BB: And he was in London?
GH: He was in London and
BB: …and Russia.
GH: … some work in Russia and we talked.
BB: And you could have picked up the phone and called if you needed to?
GH: Exactly, exactly and a couple of times. Of course, we did talk about some issues that I thought I needed his advice on. So that was the other piece that he was available for consultation. But he didn‟t interfere, which was good too. And I thought that was the most satisfying part or the part that helped me the most to perform well.
BB: He was gone what for about six months?
GH: One time it was six months and another time it was about three months.
BB: Were there any unusual circumstances that you hadn‟t anticipated that came up during those times? 26
GH: Not really, I think the two most difficult times I recall is that City Council meeting on the Engineering School and this one woman was really giving me a hard time. And then the other one was related to the medical campus and it was a meeting that involved a lot of outsiders about the practice plan you know and all of those new relations…
BB: Managed care.
GH: Managed care. That‟s what I was trying to recall. And I just didn‟t feel completely knowledgeable to the extent that I would have wanted to be because I was in a room with a lot of outsiders who were very well versed in their own particular area and had a lot of expertise. So my role had to become one of chairing the meeting rather than participating in the discussion and I did that and you know as I think back, I would have felt better if I had known more.(laughs)
BB: Well, that was all so new.
GH: It was a very specialized situation and so new. But I do know when I do well and I know when I needed a little more information. And so I think that has helped me through the years and its alright to say I‟ve learned that its alright to say in this particular case I‟m not quite sure but I‟ll find out or perhaps vice president so and so has more information on that. Especially in a situation where you‟re acting that for me it became necessary maybe a couple of times to use that kind of phrase.
BB: How do you do that kind of research when you think that you need it? 27
GH: Well, I think you depend a lot on other people who are the specialists in the area. Perhaps I should have had, as I think back, a session with the vice president down there or the hospital director to review some of that before the meeting. I think I did some of that but obviously not to the extent that I might have or should have but ….. Running a university is big business.
BB: Yes, I‟m sure.
GH: And a lot of pieces to it. So much of what the president or the acting president or the leader at a particular time has to be done with confidence in what other people have helped you to know. And when I chaired the budget committee I found that it‟s so true that there‟s such a massive amount of work that I had to parcel that out to other people and had to learn from other people.
BB: Well certainly if there are ever tensions, it‟s around money.
GH: Yes, yes that‟s for sure.
BB: So you have deal with that people piece of it as well?
GH: And some of the issues that relate to one‟s specialty or one‟s area of responsibility, for example, the library versus faculty positions. You know those kind of needs would come up and you just have to take it all under consideration and do what seems best at that point and time and that‟s what I tried to do.
BB: Well, it still has to be a job that has its stresses at times no matter how people oriented you are. And I wonder how do you handle stress for yourself? What do you do to get de-stressed?
GH: (Laughs) Well, I have a husband who hears a lot of stuff (laughing). And we have a swimming pool and we swim a lot and we have a beach house 28
and on some Fridays, we would just head to the beach and I think that I tried a lot of times just to do other things and have a balanced life throughout the periods when I was really in a major leadership role so that that didn‟t become the only thing I was doing even at that point in time. So that it wasn‟t this extremely stressful situation and then I‟ve got to go off and get rid of the stress. It was really throughout the process to try to come to what I deemed would have been the best decision to live with that and to go the beach.
BB: I‟m very impressed with so many boards that you have served on and your community involvement in addition to all of your roles here. That just seems sort of overwhelming in terms of time commitment. I would guess too that might give you a balanced perspective?
GH: Yes.
BB: That people who don‟t do that wouldn‟t necessarily have?
GH: Well, obviously, I think sometimes I was sought after because I was a woman and an African American and I was at the university. And sometimes I had to decide. Do I really want to do this? Is this an area that I really like having some involvement in? And sometimes I would have to consider is this good for the university or is this good for me as a mother with school kids? I had school age kids. And when all of that came together, there were a lot of possibilities for community wide membership. But when I retired from the University as a full time faculty member/administrator in 1999, I decided I was going not to feel as obligated as I had in earlier years. Because I didn‟t need to represent the university anymore. I didn‟t need to be the parent of school age children. I didn‟t 29
need to worry about the schools, and the parks (laughs), all of these things to the extent that I had. I really needed to enjoy some of the things that I wanted to do in retirement. So I‟m not on as many boards. In fact, I actually resigned from two major boards within the last two years, because I just decided I really don‟t have that great of interest in those boards now, and I don‟t want to have to go to a meeting and one of my friends would call and say, “Let‟s go play golf.” So, (laughs) the Leadership Institute is enough. It‟s just enough to keep me involved.
BB: Grace when you look back on all of those community boards, were there any that you just really liked?
GH: Oh, yes. Yes. I loved Maymont. I was on the Maymont board. It was a fun board. It was very clear about its objectives. We worked well together. We had good people on it. It was a commitment but it wasn‟t the meaning of life (laughs), if you know what I mean? (laughs) People were serious about getting the job done but not so serious that we weren‟t nice to each other…
And we had a good time.
BB: Have you been over there since they finished off the basement…
GH: No.
BB: …it‟s really very nice if you can get over there sometime.
GH: I‟m still on the mailing list and I‟ve been thinking I wanted to do that. What other boards did I really like? There was a board called the Family and Children‟s Trust Fund many years ago within the Department of Social Services that I liked. And it was a small group but we had some clear objectives. It‟s now on the Virginia state income tax form whereby you can make a contribution to the 30
Family and Children‟s Trust Fund. And it was an effort to recognize and create mechanisms where there would be support systems across the state for the needs of families and children. And that was good because it was something from the ground up, and it was just a small group of us who got that started. We were working with the General Assembly so we could see something come into being based on the action of just a few people. And I guess the biggest joy of my life was the creation of John B. Cary School. I was very involved with a group of women who used our contacts and hard work and personal participation to get that school started. That was a huge success, and our daughter attended that school, and it was really the right thing for her.
BB: Speaking of your daughter, where are your children living today?
GH: Oh well, our daughter lives in Sedona, Arizona, and her son goes to a boarding school out there called Verde Valley Verde Day School. Anyway, it‟s a school that was started by Barry Goldwater and Margaret Mead.
BB: Oh my, that‟s an interesting combination…
GH: Isn‟t that an interesting combination? And it has a heavy focus on community and environment and I think that‟s what brought them together. It‟s not a fancy school but it‟s an international program, with kids from all over the world, and they do community projects and have a heavy emphasis on writing and the social sciences and all the things that my grandson likes, other than science and math, (laughs) he‟ll never be rich…
BB: Is he in high school? 31
GH: He‟s in high school. My daughter is a social worker…and she went out there to be near him.
BB: Well she certainly picked a lovely part of the world.
GH: That‟s for sure. (laughs) It‟s near the Grand Canyon…and it‟s beautiful to wake up in the morning and look at the mountains. She just bought a house and she‟s very excited because there was some discussion whether my grandson wanted to come back, whether he wanted to come back east and finish high school. They had lived in Washington before they moved and he had attended Georgetown Day School. And he was thinking maybe he should come back to Georgetown Day School and finish high school. But he came for a visit in the fall and he talked to the people and they said, “Oh you know you can come back anytime Julian, just let us know.” And then he said he realized he had outgrown his friends there and he had a whole new set of friends so he‟s going to stay out there in Sedona.
GH: And our son is here at VCU. He works in the Athletic Department. He had some health problems at birth which resulted in us spending a lot of time with the public school system in Richmond…
BB: I need to turn my tape over…
GH: I was saying that we worked a lot with the public school system to get the right school for him and daughter getting new programs started, which met their individual learning needs. I think those years are really important and meant a lot to me because we could see concrete things happen, so I felt a lot of success for the work as a parent. Our son is married, but has no children. He is 32
a very good person and a very good employee. He loves his job and his co-workers are very fond of him.
BB: Was he here while you were still here?
GH: Oh yes. Yes. In fact one summer I got him a little summer job here. Actually, I think his first job was in the library, and from then on he got his own job (laughs) so he ended up with the athletic program.
BB: Wonder how it was for him to have you for his boss?
GH: Oh he brags about me (laughs) yes. Now he‟s on his own.
BB: Some people might say to him, “You know you go talk to mom about this.”
GH: He takes care of himself very well.
BB: Well, you mentioned golf. Are you a golfer?
GH: I try. (laughs)
BB: That actually leads me to ask you. You retired in 1999, and what is that like for you?
GH: Well, as my husband said, and I think he is absolutely right it gives me something to do other than be at home all the time because he says “he would go crazy if I were at home all the time.” (laughs) That‟s why I like the job I have now because it‟s focused and its not full time and its not major responsibility for a lot of other people. And I enjoy the training because it gets me involved with a whole different group of people. Just the interaction with them is very stimulating and I grow hearing about what other people are doing. We have one group that‟s a women‟s only group. 33
BB: And you‟re talking now about the Grace Harris Leadership Institute?
GH: Yes „because that‟s my work now and so that‟s enough and it‟s very rewarding.
BB: Well I do want to ask you to talk about the Institute a little more but before I leave retirement generally,. I was struck recently with a little article in the newspaper, actually I think it was about financial planning for retirement, but the point was we think about financial planning but we don‟t think so much about emotional planning. And these particular scholars were reflecting on stages of retirement for individuals and how they linked it actually to Elizabeth Kubler Ross…
GH: Yes
BB: …and steps of grief and how it does take a while to settle in with all of that…
GH: Well, one good thing is my husband and I are in relatively good health and that‟s good. So we don‟t have the difficulty of getting around or traveling when we want to or even playing a little golf and swimming. I think we do put off doing things that probably need to be done, for example, cleaning my attic out (laughs), my closets, and basement. But he has been on a kick this week about cleaning out the yard and the little house that has all the junk in it and I have been amazed and pleased. But it‟s too hot to go in the attic now, so that will have to wait until next year. (laughs) But my daughter and I were talking about this recently, the need to get in some of the business affairs. For example, 34
she was suggesting that for the art we have I need to label that, you know? So she‟s busy with her camera taking pictures and doing that.
BB: There‟s always a project.
GH: Yes, there‟s a project but there‟s also the denial of some things that we probably need to think. And in fact I was talking Sunday with some friends about living arrangements, because we have a house and a yard and we‟ve had this house and we love it and our neighborhood. We enjoy outdoors so we have a lot of entertainment in our back yard, and this friend was telling me about the retirement place out … I‟ve forgotten what the name of it is…
BB: Westminster Canterbury?
GH: Yes, that‟s the one. I think its Westminster Canterbury. And we were talking about it and she was praising the services and program. I said maybe I should get some more information about it and think about it. But we maybe haven‟t yet faced reality with that planning, so retirement emotionally isn‟t yet at the stage it probably should be. (laughs)
BB: You still go down to your beach house?
GH: Oh yes.
BB: On Fridays?
GH: We still don‟t go as much as we probably could go or should go, but we know its there, and we don‟t rent it out, so when we want to go we go. But probably we‟ll use it more in the summer. 35
BB: Let me go back to the Leadership Institute and ask you to talk about how active are you there? What is the curriculum? Are there future plans for the institute?
GH: Well I was just meeting with someone before coming over here about future plans. Let me start with just a brief description of what we do. We started with one program that is for university employees, staff and faculty that was actually created by the Board of Visitors and it was to be named the Grace E. Harris Leadership Institute for the professional development of the current and future leaders of the University. So we started the first program in 2001. It took us about a year to get it up and running and then we recruited for it for a while? At any rate we have about 20 to 25 people a year in that program and it‟s a ten month program that brings people together from all over the university. President [Trani] insisted that it include participants from both campuses and the hospital. We have great people who interact with one another in a way that you wouldn‟t believe. The number one comment about the value of the program is the opportunity to know the university and to know people across both campuses. I see people on the street now, who have been in the program. In fact I saw three or four people coming over here. One was saying, “I‟m so glad that I was in the program „cause I had the chance the other day to call so and so down on the other campus to get some information.” So that program is a huge success. Not only do we look at personal growth and development but we also present a lot of information about the university. We have the President first and then all the Vice Presidents give presentations about their units, and their responsibilities. They 36
also comment on their styles of leadership, what they think is important in a leadership role. The participants have to do a university project and some of the projects have been developed into the everyday operation of the university. For example, one group last year worked on improving the signage within the university and that is being taken on by the marketing staff and its being talked about all over campus. Each participant is assigned a mentor from the administration or faculty leadership of the university. So that‟s the VCU program. The other major program we have is a women‟s program that was supported by the DuPont Fund, which was a three year program, and then they funded us for a second period. So we have had that program funded by DuPont for 6 years and it‟s unusual that they fund a second time around. Now we offer that one with our own internal funds and some tuition by the participants. It started as a program for women in the faith community and higher education. The point there being that these are two major institutions in our society that have not promoted women to the extent that they might have and so that the DuPont people were intrigued with that as the major comparison and we have continued with that. There is a lot more on personal development and understanding one‟s own skills and capacities. Last week we had one of our board members, a woman who is very prominent in business to talk to the group…
BB: And how big is this group?
GH: It ranges from about 16 to 25 at any given time.
BB: And do you meet monthly over the three years? 37
GH: Yes, monthly. And we meet monthly for about a ten month period, during which time the participants must complete a community project. In the VCU program I failed to mention that each participant has a mentor of a major university person, including the President, Vice Presidents, some of the Deans, and other administrators in the university. So they have the mentorship and the project as well the monthly sessions. It‟s well planned and has been very successful. I was just meeting with someone a few minutes ago about getting more involved with us in a leadership role so that I can be less involved. (laughs) So what we‟ve done for two years and probably will do again in a few months is a program in collaboration with the Black Caucus of the General Assembly, on the development of minority individuals who are looking to move into leadership roles in the political arena. We had some state funding actually to carry that out along with the effort of the Black Caucus and that‟s been very successful too.
BB: Is that a year or more?
GH: That one we did for about six to eight months in a more concentrated fashion and that was quite successful.. the two years we‟ve done it, it has been very well received and we are likely to do that again…
BB: So your programs are not just limited to VCU?
GH: Well, we‟ve expanded them beyond VCU and certainly beyond the original concept of VCU leaders only. So I stay pretty busy… (laughs)
38
BB: Well I‟m coming to the end of my questions here but I just wondered if there‟s anything that we haven‟t talked about that you think is important to add to this interview?
GH: Well one thing that I had talked about and I had mentioned to Kathy that an important part of the years I was in the School of Social Work were my effort around the whole question (pause) of where black people, where African American people, fit in our society and some of the very blatant segregation and discrimination we faced. More discrimination than segregation, I guess, but some of it was segregation in the early years. Some of the efforts during that period focused on these issues and how to bring about change. I think back to the years when I first came to the university in the School of Social Work and the extent of discrimination in statewide meetings for example. If we were going to a conference in Roanoke, Virginia we‟d have to live in a home of black people in the community, not able to go to the Hotel Roanoke. And how I organized some groups to say, “If we cannot meet together as social workers, in the state of Virginia, then we should not go to the Hotel Roanoke.” So over time we had an impact on making that happen. So, my point is that I took a leadership role in an effort to bring about change in regard to race relations. It was something that I was very involved in and it felt good that we were able to bring about some changes.
BB: Well, public accommodations, I think, in 1964 outlawed that…
GH: Exactly. 39
. BB: …but practice didn‟t always come right away (Narrator spoke this simultaneously with Interviewer) but I was just curious if you recall how late the Hotel Roanoke was …?
GH: I came here in „67, and they were still working on that till probably the early 70s. In some local situations there remained legal discrimination and in others the practice of discrimination and segregation remained, and I guess what I was after was the practice…
BB: Do you remember any of those?
GH: Well the other place I recall was the Commonwealth Club in its practice toward women. I was on the founding board of the Women‟s Bank here. At one point the women‟s‟ bank president. So she decided to take us all to dinner one evening and there were a lot of shocked faces but we stayed. I think sometimes you just have to confront people and not worry about what they were going to do. Within the university, I don‟t have any recollection of any specific times I felt discriminated against, and I think by then the university had moved into a different mode of trying to recruit more women and more minorities but that took several years. So I was always pushing, when I was Provost, that there was a good effort to make sure that there were minorities in the pool. So many times search committees would come back, saying we couldn‟t find anybody; I wanted to know what was done to go after people? So that was another way within the University that I tried to deal with that situation.
BB: Do you think that at this point in time the University is at a good place in terms of women and minorities or do you think there‟s more work yet… 40
GH: Oh, I think there‟s always work to be done. The issue with the women tends to be more what level of faculty appointment they have? Is it collateral? Is it non-tenure? It is at the lowest levels? And then I think the other piece of it is to what extent are the leaders really making an effort to have people in the pool, people who would represent a diverse population. So there‟s work to be done still. And what level are those positions. The hardest time I had on that whole question was trying to get our African American Studies program as a major (laughs). The State Council of Education gave me a hard time on that and more specifically the one African American member on that body.
BB: The council appointees…?
GH: Yes. Yes, (laughs) but anyway I thought I would just comment on that particular part of my sense of responsibility as a leader…to try to bring about some social change in certain situations. So right now I continue that as I serve on the Governor‟s Commission for Board Appointments, and especially for women, which is more serious in some universities than the race piece. But that continues to be something I enjoy doing. For a number of years I served on the Virginia Health Care Foundation Board and I continue. My board term ended in December, and I was called today, “Are you available for this conference call this Friday about some committee that I agreed I would continue to be involved with. So…
BB: I followed them over the years.
GH: Yes. Yes.
BB: They certainly were doing good work. 41
GH: I think so. So that was just something I wanted to comment about and I can‟t think of anything else than to brag about my family and you know, my big family of sisters, and cousins, and nieces, and nephews. We do a lot with family and that sustains us. One of my sisters just got back form visiting my daughter out in Arizona to help her move, but I think she really wanted to go see Sedona, but we have a family reunion every two years
BB: That‟s good.
GH: So that‟s about the story of where I am at this point in life.
BB: Thank you very much.
GH: Oh, you‟re welcome and I hope I have not rattled on too long.
BB: No, No, No, it‟s been fun. Thank you.
[End of Interview.]