Marguerita Austin and Frances Gordon interview (2000-01-21)

              [Track time: 0:43:32]
CARVER LIVING NEWSPAPER PROJECT: ORAL HISTORY
Interview with Mrs. Marguerita Austin and Mrs. Frances Gordon
(Please note, the two voices are very quiet and indistinguishable, and therefore have not been differentiated on the tape)
Interviewers Carolyn Hawley, Carver resident and Rick Schobitz, VCU Graduate Student Date: January 21,2000
(Interviewers comments are indicated by bold)
[Something about an icehouse]
I don't know where he got it from.
It wasn't up there on Harrison Street?
Yes, there was an icehouse up there somewhere.
Where the Siegel Center is now?
What?
The Siegel Center, right at Harrison and Broad.
No, Harrison and Marshall. I've forgotten where it was. Right behind Marshall. And there was also one down on 17th Street.
(interviewer reading) I have been invited to participate in an interview regarding my perceptions of living in Carver, living in the Carver neighborhood. I have been informed that this interview is for the purpose of documenting community members' thoughts, ideas and memories of growing up in Carver. My participation will involve an interview conducting by a Carver community member and a VCU representative who will assist with the interview. I understand that the interview will be videotaped and/or audiotaped, and portions of this may be used as part of the Living Newspaper project. I will allow the interview to be audiotaped for this purpose. I also understand that the only persons who have access to these tapes are Laura Browder and Theresa Konechne who are VCU faculty members, developing the project, and myself.
(FG) They teach you to say Carver area. The Carver area didn't start until I'm thinking the year when they called it the Carver area. Isn't that what you are talking about? The year when they called it the Carver area, when they tore down the houses over there on Leigh Street and put up this extension to Carver School, then it was called the Carver area. That is when the Carver area began.
(MA) That is something I bet nobody knows.
(FG) Of course they do, sure, sure.
Because a lot of the people who lived up on Clay said that it was called Sheep Hill before.
(FG) Yes. It was. Richmond is built up on a lot of hills, 6 or 7 hills, and this is Sheep Hill. (MA) And didn't they call it the Carver area because more black people were here?
1
(FG) That wasn't it. They took the school from Moore Street School and called it Carver, so then they called it the Carver area. It was Moore Street when we went, but then they added on an extension and then took the houses, displaced people, then they called it the Carver area. (MA) But you know, we went to the Moore Street School when it was on Moore Street. You know the school was Moore Street School, and it was on Moore Street.
(FG) But see when they built the new part they called it Carver.
Where did you live?
(FG) On Leigh Street, right down the street from the Carver School. Carver School is in the 1100 block, and I lived in the 1500.
Near the Walker Building?
(FG) Right across the street. Diagonally across.
Okay.
We are interviewing, Rick Schobitz and Carolyn Hawley, are interviewing. You can say your names.
(FG) Well, I'm Frances Gordon.
(MA) I'm Margarita Austin.
And Mrs. Austin, you currently live 904 W. Clay Street?
(MA) No, 902.
(FG) And I am in the Randolph area at 1321 Wallace Street.
Oh wonderful.
(FG) I am now there.
Where did you live in Carver Mrs. Gordon?
(FG) Oh, I was brought up in the Carver area. I was there when it was Moore Street School, not the Carver area. Do you want the Carver area or before?
Before.
(FG) Oh, well.
When it was known as Sheep Hill.
(FG) Oh, I grew up there. I was a youngster, 8 or 9 years old, and I went to Moore Street School, and we had all around in that neighborhood. What else did we have up there?
Were you able to walk home together from Moore Street School?
(FG) Sometimes. We knew each other, but she lived here and I lived over on the other street. This is Clay, and I lived over on Leigh.
And how did you all meet?
(FG) We were gorgeous girls together. I think I'm older than she. So anyway. Are you familiar with Moore Street Church.
Yes, I grew up in the Carver area.
(FG) Oh, did you? When was that?
I was born in 1959, and we lived over on Clay, 803 West Clay. And my grandparents lived on Catherine.
(FG) Who were they?
Albert and Elizabeth Edwardson.
(FG) Well you should know right much about the Carver area — did you go to Carver School? Yes, ma'am. Miss Austin was my 4th grade teacher. So did you have sisters and brothers?
2
(FG) Yes, I had a younger set of sisters and brothers and we lived in a house that had about 14 rooms, because my older brother lived upstairs with his five kids, and his wife, and my momma and daddy lived downstairs with seven kids.
Oh, wonderful.
(FG) So it was a large house.
What was mealtime like?
Well, let me tell you what we did, we never did eat until my daddy came home. You know, like the dinner, we all had to sit around the table and had to have dinner. Upstairs, well they had their meals when their father came home. And we ate downstairs. So we were really like separate families, yet I'm the aunt to the kids who lived upstairs. And they fought.
Oh goodness. Well you know how sisters and brother do.
(FG) And they fought, and they looked at my mother, and they called my mother Miss Lula. And they were downstairs, sometimes they would come to our floor downstairs, and Miss Lula would give them something to eat. So, the Wallers lived, I lived right here, and the Wallers lived right across there (apparently indicating something on a map). They lived in a house and then they had the jewelry shop. Do you remember the jewelry shop?
Hm-hmm.
(FG) Years ago when I had my ears pierced, down the street Miss	Randolph taught music. In the 900 block. And her sister, Miss Rosa Harper, pierced my ears. And they did it the old way. I must have been about 7 or 8. And they'd do like this, and then they'd put this ice behind it, and then they put a cork behind it, and then they stick the needle right on through. But the thing I'm trying to make is, you didn't have anywhere to buy earrings back then. They didn't sell earrings in Thalhimer's and Miller & Rhoads.
Really?
(FG) No, not pierced.
Was it a popular thing then? To get your ears pierced?
(FG) No. We were barbaric. That was barbaric. That was barbaric, having your ears pierced. Like Africans got their noses pierced. And what not. That was barbaric. And so they didn't sell any earrings. So we got those earrings from Mr. Waller.
Oh.
(FG) And I had a pair of gold hoops. And that was the only place you could buy earrings. From Mr. Waller. Black folk.
(MA) Where?
(FG) Over at Mr. Waller's. Because they didn't sell earrings, I told them this was barbaric to have your ears pierced.
(MA) Oh yeah, that's true.
(FG) And I was telling them how Miss Harper pierced my ears, put ice on them to numb them. Oh, and I also took music from her sister, Miss Randolph.
(MA) Oh, Miss Harper, she was the only music teacher...
(FG) Miss Randolph was the music teacher.
(MA) Oh but she lived in another area.
(FG) No, she lived in the 900 block.
(MA) You know she owns a house down here on Clay now.
(FG) Who? Miss Randolph is dead.
(MA) I know. I mean recent, in our years. I said she OWNED a house.
(FG) Oh, she owned. And Mr. Bland lived down the street, further, for teaching music.
3
(MA) You don't hear of no private music lessons no more.
(FG) And I was telling Marguerite, laughing about it, we didn't have all that money, but we didn't really know that we were poor. And on the corner was this Jew store. Remember I told you about it.
(MA) Yeah, yeah.
(FG) And although we didn't run a tab, there were people who ran tabs in there. And this woman used to come in there, and she would buy two chickens. And that is strange, because I don't know how many people were in her family, but we never did have more than the one chicken. I don't care how many people were in the family. And this woman would come in and it was the funniest thing she always bought two chickens, and the chickens were in the coup, you know, live.
Oh, she bought them live?
(FG) How else would you get them at that time? You know you had to buy them live. So they were live and they'd be in the coup and she'd go down there and pick her chickens out. And then you'd take the chickens home. And somebody would go out there on the street. I didn't do it. But cut the heads off, and the chickens would get up and run around the yard. And we would just crack up. And once they died, you had to put them in a tub of hot water. Don't you remember that? You'd put them down in the hot water so you could pluck the feathers off. That's the way they killed them
That's really interesting.
(MA) But you know in that time your mother could use a whole chicken, one chicken for the whole family.
(FG) That's what I said. It didn't matter how many were in the family, you didn't never have but one chicken. And I told her the other day about this woman who bought two. Didn't I tell you that the other day?
(MA) I just wondered what she want to have.
(some additional inaudible chicken talk)
(MA) I remember Mr. Berman right up at Marshall Street.
(FG) Berman, at Marshall. Yes.
He had a Jewish Store there. And people would put things on a tab.
(FG) I wonder if they minded that we called it a Jew Store.
But they were.
(FG) WE get all excited when somebody says...
(MA) But that's different. That's their nationality, their Jews. But when you call us something, then that's a derogatory thing.
(FG) Well you know, you think about things like that. And up there further on our block you had, and I ran across a fellow the other day who has a fish store, ask your grandmother about A.L. Criss. He was there at Hancock and Leigh.
A.L.Criss?
Yes.
Okay.
(FG) And I'm going to tell you something else about growing up there. Then Marguerite can take over. On Sundays, everybody ate the same thing. Hot rolls, then fish or fried chicken. And on Sunday everybody was listening to Wings over Jordan? Everybody listened to Wings over
4
Jordan, and right behind that would come the Harmonizing Four. But the reason why I say that, because the neighbors knew it, and if anybody saw me standing on the stoop, they'd say, Frances, go tell your mama Wings Over Jordan coming on. And everybody would be listening to it.
I was going to ask what kind of programs they had. Was this a black radio station? (FG) No they just came on. But that was a black group. Called Wings over Jordan.
(MA) It was the funniest thing, we had a radio, and you'd get right up on the radio, but you weren't looking at anything.
(FG) And it was The Shadow. The shadow knows. And Amos & Andy.
(MA) Do you remember Amos & Andy? When I think about it I remember. It makes you wonder, did I listen to that?
(FG) But we would sit right up on the radio, all of us, and you'd just stare at it. And Moore Street School was back up on Moore Street. It didn't become Carver until they built the new part. If you walked in, then you'd see the old part. That's where we went.
So the entranceway was actually on Moore Street?
(FG) Yes. And Miss Ella, Ella Waller, she lived in that 1100 block, and she had a beautiful house and we would come down her steps, she let all the teachers come down her steps. And they had a garden. And you could walk right down her yard and right on up into Moore Street School. Don't you remember Miss Ella Waller.
(MA) Yeah.
(FG) Don't you remember she had that pretty house up on the 1100 block.
(MA) Yes she surely did. We thought she was rich.
(FG) Well we did. I guess she was. She had this big pretty garden with water falls in it and things.
Did you all take pictures back then?
(FG) No.
But the radio is nice. That sounds like such a good family time.
(FG) Yeah, it was. And what else was scarey, the Shadow. Do you remember that?
I remember that name.
(FG)Yeah, the Shadow, it used to come on. The shadow knows. And you remember when you asked someone about Amos & Andy? I was grown. I was an adult before I found out that Amos & Andy, the two of them, were white. And who else? I have a picture of the Wings over
Georgia. Oh, they had the prettiest voices. They made all these sounds. And I had the records by them.
(MA) Who is that?
(FG) The Wings Over Georgia.
(MA) Oh, you do?
(FG) And I have a picture of the Wings Over Georgia.
(MA) Oh, you do?
(FG) And some of the fellows for the Harmonizing Four are still living, aren't they?
(MA) Yes, I believe they are.
(FG) It was the funniest thing to see that radio sitting up on the table. Because we didn't know any better.
(MA) There used to be about seven of us crouching around that radio.
5
(FG) The other day I showed some five year olds a picture of a radio, and they didn't know what it was.
Oh.
(MA) Oh, they didn't know what it was.
(FG) See, it was an old-fashioned radio, so they didn't know what it was. Have you ever seen an old-fashioned radio? Its shaped like this. Kind of shaped like that, oval shaped, and it has little knobs on it. Have you ever seen it?
I may have.
(FG) And you didn't have a record player, you had those old victrolas. What did your family do for entertainment?
(FG) Radio.
(MA) Radio.
(FG) See, television wasn't on. And people visited. And you had company, and then in the summertime you didn't have air conditioning, so you sat on the porch. You knew all the neighbors.
(MA) And you talked back and forth with them too.
(FG) Yeah, you talked back and forth with them, from one side of the street to the other to your neighbors. And if you did something, your neighbors would tell on you. And we lived in a school zone, so all the teachers would come down the street. They knew where you lived. We had an old lady, Miss Peters, do you remember Miss Peters?
(MA) Ooh, she used to scare us to death.
Is that Madeline Peters?
(FG) No, Madeline's young. This is old Miss Peters.
(MA) She was so mean.
(FG) And she would stay in until five or six o'clock, and then come walking down the street, if you had misbehaved, she would stop and talk to you in front of everybody's house. That must have been an honor.
(FG) An honor? Then you'd get a beating. When you see Miss Peters coming, you run in. (MA) Where'd she live at?
(FG) She lived at around 4th or 5th Street and she walked. And she always had that satchel. She'd come and tell on you in a minute. And the teachers, they would go home. But Miss Peters, she didn't mind staying. All the teachers would give the kids who were bad to Miss Peters and she kept them after school.
Do you think that the teachers have changed since times of old?
(FG) Oh, my, yes. Now I'm going to say this. At that time and up until desegregation, our black teachers, they couldn't go this place and they couldn't go that place, so they didn't have anything to do but teach school. And so you did your work and saw to it that the kids learned. And you made all your stuff. No such thing as going to the store and buying it. So the teachers have changed. (Some hard to hear conversation about how teachers can't touch children now, but back then they'd pinch you or pull your ear).
Was there a lot of camaraderie between the parents and the teachers?
(FG) Oh, yes, you knew everybody, because you lived right there, see Moore Street School. All the teachers had to pass your house. And along time ago Mr. Morton, he was the principal, he thought all the kids who lived in the house where he lived, he thought all of them belonged to my
6
mamma and my daddy. And Mr. Morton would hop the fence and tell on the kids, but he thought they all belonged to my mamma and daddy.
Is this the same Mr. Morton...
(FG) Oscar, Oscar Morton, yes.
And Mr. Pierre.
(FG) And Mr.. Pierre. Mr. Pierre died, didn't he?
I thought I had heard somebody say that.
It seems to me we got such a thrill out of saying "Oh there's Mr. Pierre." But it was actually a picture of George Washington Carver. Remember?
That was really interesting. Now, was desegregation a major thing during that time, or what was life like before desegregation? Say for everyday living for your family, or discussions at the dinner table on Sunday.
(FG) Oh, we didn't even talk about it. And then, you talking about desegregation or segregation? Well, segregation, and then compared to desegregation.
(FG) Well listen, I'll put it this way. My momma used to send me downtown to pay the water bill or something. And we walked, you know, way downtown. No such thing as having a car take you. We walked. And so about that time the white kids would be coming out of school and they went to John Marshall, and George Wythe was down that way someplace too.
Is that near 8th or 9th?
(FG) Yeah, right. And they came down there with their brown and white saddle oxfords on. I always wanted a pair of brown and white saddle oxfords and I never did get them. I thought they belonged to some kind of society or something because all of them wore the same kind of little pleated skirts and little white anklets and those brown and white saddle oxfords. And I often wondered why we didn't do that, but my shoes were always black. And so it made a difference. Did you all have to wear uniforms at school?
(FG) No we didn't. But the only time we wore uniforms was girl scout time. During the girl scout week you had to wear your girl scout uniforms, and I was happy during girl scout week because that's all I had to wear to school.
What did you all do for fun in those days?
(FG) Played on the playground. We used to have a playground right on Moore Street School. Mr. Christian was our playground leader. Was he there for you?
I don't remember him.
(FG) Mr. Christian was at the playground. And he would open the playground.
Summer time as well?
(FG) Oh yeah. And we had enough flour bags. You know, people didn't buy bread, they bought flour. And you had a cabinet that you threw it down into. You don't know what I'm talking about.
Well you can describe it.
(FG) Okay. Well here's the cabinet. And over on this side you'd lift up the top, and you'd pour your flour down there, and in the bottom there was like a sifter. And whenever you wanted some, you turned the little handle and flour would come out. You didn't buy bread. But I used to think it was the best thing in the world when we got to have store bought. We had to eat biscuits. Momma made them fresh each day.
MMMM. I keep thinking about the fragrance they have. Homemade biscuits.
7
(FG) Well we didn't think anything about it then, because that's all you knew. Biscuits and cornbread.
What was a typical week like when your father was the ice man?
(FG) Well, he was gone. I remember, I vaguely remember, that he had a horse and wagon. And he sold both things. He sold coal when the weather was cold, and he sold ice in the summer time. People would buy ice — "Mr. Gray" that was my daddy's name, "give us a 5 cent piece of ice." It was about that size.
This might be silly but where did he get the ice from?
(FG) We had some ice houses. I think there was one, I don't know whether he went down 17th Street after it. Marguerite was saying there was one at Harrison and Marshall someplace. And then he would have an ice pick. Have you ever seen an ice pick? Don't you dare sit there and tell me you've never seen an ice pick. Have you seen an ice pick? We used to play monkey peg. Do you remember a game called monkey peg?
No, what is that?
(FG) It's a game that we played with ice picks. And we played jack rocks. What else did we play?
Now what stores were around, and what stores did you all shop at for various things? (FG) Down there on Broad Street there was a place called, you remember Thalhimer's and Miller & Rhoads? They were there, but we couldn't go in them. They were segregated. And if you did go in there, you'd always get in an argument with somebody when you went in. I could be standing there first, and some white person could come up, and the salesperson would look all over top of me and look at them "Your next." And then you got to get in a big argument, you know, I was next. But I was grown when that happened.
Would you like to talk about how that made you feel?
(MA) Terrible. We were always in arguments.
(FG) And when we desegregated, people would go for sit ins? My temperament wouldn't allow me to do that. No, I couldn't do that. Because I know if somebody was to hit me or spit on me, I know what I was going to do. I'm the fighting temperament. So I could never do that. But a lot of people did it. They went in the five and dime. People spit on them.
Was that initiated locally or?
(FG) Yes, that was initiated locally. With our Crusade for Voters, or something like that. You would do it voluntarily, but I couldn't do that. Even at VCU when I was working at my Master's. Now this was recent, in the 60s. I used to be the only black in the class. And I remember this girl, who looked like you, had a job down there at the five and dime. And she was saying they didn't treat her nice. And so the Professor said to me, Well Miss Gordon, what do you have to say about that? I said Why are you asking me? I was very belligerent. Why are you asking me what did I think about that? Because I probably wouldn't have treated her right if she didn't treat me right. You know.
So you're a fighter.
(FG) Yes. I could never have been a sit in or stand in. I just don't have the temperament. I'm better now. But at that time, see I was younger. Feisty.
When desegregation came about, was it a joy eventually when the stores were opened? (FG) A joy for what? But listen, I will say this. I worked at, they had a tea room down at Thalhimer's or Miller & Rhoads or something, and I used to go down there and serve at 3:00 on
8
a Sunday. I used to think, Oh, this must be so nice to come in here, and they were playing bridge. I used to think this must be so nice, and it was the prettiest place. See, not having the experience of that. And then, of course, we desegregated and I went down to the tea room, and I said Now is this what we were trying to get into? Nothing, you know? It was just a room. But I guess things that are denied you you want to do.
(Aside exchange that Marguerite has to leave because her pipes are broken at her house, but Frances asks her to sit since she is doing all the talking)
Now, Mrs. Austin did say she's available most any time except when she goes on her doctor's appointments? What would be a good time?
(FG) Is this anything like what you wanted?
Oh, its perfect.
(FG) I'll tell you this. People used to come by, you don't know about that, they used to call FISH, FISH. And everybody used to come running out of the house. And they had them on a little string, and they were 25 cents a bunch. And they sold rabbits.
Twenty five cents a bunch?
(FG) Yes, twenty five cents a bunch. And they sold rabbits. And when its come time for watermelon, they'd come up and down the street with a truck, and all the ladies would run out and buy the watermelon. See, that was our community. What else did they sell?
(Some discussion about rescheduling on a Wednesday in the future when Mrs. Austin could be there)
(FG) Carver did not start until Carver School was... I didn't sign it. Did you want me to sign it? Yes, ma'am. Oh, Mrs. Gordon, what you were talking about is exactly the kinds of things we wanted to hear. So if you could think about any more stories, or any more life memories you'd like to share...
Here you go. This just has a little more about what we're doing. So maybe you can read that and just think of anything else. But what you were telling us right now is exactly what we're looking for.
(FG) Really?
Just like you said that those people couldn't know about that one area of town that they hadn't grown up in, that's why we're asking you about that area.
(Some additional quiet conversation takes place between four different people at what time, it is impossible to get any flow of the pieces taking place)
(FG) You know where William Byrd is? Down there in Oregon Hill? I went down there once, that's part of Carver, to get a bed from IGA. I went down there and somebody hollered "Here comes a N	on the block!" I went on in there and I ordered a bed, and the woman said to me
(	?). You ask anybody about Oregon Hill and the folks that live down there. Its better now that its desegregated. When I came out of that place, by the time I came out, and I was by myself, and I'm grown now, this was in the 50s, and I came out, and there was this crowd of people. And they threw rocks and tomatoes at my back. Can you imagine throwing rocks and tomatoes from
9
down there, Oregon Hill on Erie Street, all the way up to Harrison and Randolph. You ask them about Oregon Hill in the 50s. Its better out there now. Well, you get us another time.
Well I'd love to talk with you some more.
(FG) Thank you, thank you,.
You've told us about some history, and the plan.
(Some additional inaudible conversation about the fact that Mrs. Austin writes, and she should get with Laura and talk about the play).
(MA) Well, doing a play is hard work. This one that I'm doing now (some more discussion that is too difficult to get).
So would you like to participate?
(MA) In what?
In the writing of the play that we have to put on?
(MA) I suppose so. That depends if I'm out of mine. Oh, this will be some time before you get to writing.
Yes, probably another three months or so.
(Some inaudible regarding Mrs. Austin's current play)
(There is nothing on the remainder of the tape side, and nothing on the reverse.)
10