Jim Hill and Doug Kleffner interview (2000-05-30)

              [Track time: 0:36:59]
CARVER LIVING HISTORY PROJECT: ORAL HISTORY
Interview with Jim Hill and Doug Kleffner.
Interviewer Rick Schobitz, VCU graduate student
Date: May 2000
(Second interview, microphone did not pick-up first interview on 1/24/00)
Interviewers comments/questions are indicated by bold
Interviewees are identified as Jim Hill (JM) and Doug Kleffner (DK)
This is Rick Schobitz. I'm sitting down with Jim and Doug again for our second time around. The first thing I want to talk about a little bit is if you could tell the story of how you came to the Carver community.
(JH) Okay. I started to look for a place to buy, and I never bought a house before. I had been renting. I went to HOME, Housing Opportunities Made Equal, and they did a workup of my financial information, and they said well, you might be able to get a loan for this amount. So I went to a realtor that a friend had recommended, and she gave me a list of addresses. It was a very short list. And I, this I think was the only Carver house on the list. I really wasn't aware of the neighborhood, except that I remember the houses on Leigh Street, I knew that you could take Leigh Street to get over to the Diamond, that area. And so I came over here and was real impressed with the type of houses that were over here, and the amount of house for the price. And it was hands down the best of the really small pool of houses that were on that list. Because I wanted to be in the city. And so I checked on a little bit of work that was going on in this neighborhood, and learned that the city had given a lot of attention and had a lot of programs going here, and it had been selected for attention for trying to bring it back and stabilize it. So that's how we ended up looking here and ended up with this house.
One of you guys is an architect?
(DK) Yes.
Can you tell us just a little bit about what you saw as an opportunity, and then just a little bit about some of the things you've done here.
(DK) Well, again, it seemed like you got a lot for your money with this house in this neighborhood. And it seemed this house in particular was in fairly good shape.
(JH) Right off the bat, we had to correct some problems, mainly plumbing problems and some water damage from plumbing problems in the back part of the house, and the floor joists had sagged over time, so the floors were a little bowed. So one of the first things we did was went under the house and dug footings. We did this ourselves, and some friends from church came and helped us run a thirty foot beam under the house, and then put it up on house jacks and jacked up the center of the house so the floors are much more level than they were. We had to do the most work in the bathroom and the kitchen, and we took about a year I guess doing the preliminary work before we moved in. It took a little while going in. And cosmetic stuff has just been a little year after year.
Well, it truly is an amazing house.
(JH) Thanks.
1
The last time we were in here I saw pictures of {?}.Something else I find really interesting is kind of the leadership role that you guys are taking in the community through the association. Can you talk a little bit about how you became involved with the community association, as well as where you see that going in terms of both your involvement and where you see the community going?
(DK) Well, right off the bat we started going to the meetings regularly, which we have pretty much every month. And I guess maybe after the first year I started going fairly regularly. And I think just our interest in seeing that things happened in a somewhat logical way, when decisions came up that needed to be made by the membership, we were in the center of the discussion. At first we didn't take an active leadership role.
(JH) The idea was just to keep a low profile. You know, get to know our neighbors.
(DK) And find out who really was who. From the start we've been involved in the alley cleanups and the paintathons and some of the stuff where you could get to know what was going on and get to know who was doing stuff. Then I'm not really sure how we got, I mean just from being at the meetings regularly we got to know the president and the vice president, and I guess just got involved in some committees, and they got to the point where they were ready to do elections again, and they asked if we'd be interested in being officers, and Jim's been the secretary now for two years, and I've been the treasurer for two years. And we've just been elected again, whenever that was, at the end of the year or the first of the year. So, if we become more involved with more committees. It shouldn't stop our being involved in the VCU partnership part of it. I've gotten a little more involved in some of the housing part of it, we have kind of a separate group that handles the neighborhood renewal part of it, RHA issues, on a monthly basis. I've been more involved in that. Its just more toward my background, architecturally related, and a lot of the things we're doing with the design of houses and where should the houses go, and those kind of things. Its nice to be involved in that and to try to help guide some of where the energy should go I guess.
Do you feel that things are moving in a direction that you'd like to see them move in?
(JH) I think the neighborhood is. Its not a tidal wave of renovation or anything, but there's a real commitment in the neighborhood to try and stabilize and preserve the character of the neighborhood that's here. And also part of that is to ensure that the people who already live here are not overlooked, are not missing opportunities. That's what I think is so important. If all you do is redo the buildings, but you lose the continuity and the history of the neighborhood, you really lost something even though it might be something that people come from out of town and drive down the tree-shaded streets, but that's kind of it. There's something there for people out of town, but there's less there for people who live here. This community. So it really is the idea of preserving the community. And that's what's interesting. We've been here now for six or seven years. We've become a part of the community. When I say that I mean the community that's in the neighborhood association and stuff. Because there are a whole lot of people out there who maybe stay in touch with what's actually going on, but they don't actually participate. The people who grew up here, and I think Barbara Abernathy knows a whole bunch of people, probably Gladys and Carolyn, haven't been in Carver for so long, that there are a lot of people we don't know who stay tuned in to people that are active. I've been real glad to see, first of all having a dialog with VCU rather than being surprised by VCU, or having an adversarial relationship, and I feel that that's gone pretty well. I wish more people were active within the neighborhood association and within the partnership. I also feel like there has been a real
2
reduction in crime, and I think the neighborhood feels much calmer and much safer than when we first got here. Like those chairs have been out on the porch for a while instead of vanishing like they were likely to do when we first got here. And also we're beginning to see a little more rennovation and stabilization of houses taking place without direct help from RRHA. Just people doing it on their own. And that's good to see. And its spotty in some places, but there are some blocks that have really turned around. Like that little row on Hancock is looking really good now. I think there's a definite trend, I think its hard to judge the rate or the speed of the trend, but there's a definite direction to it. Where the neighborhood is getting more stable. I don't know if that's exactly what I mean.
(DK) And it is slow. But if you look back over the years, it is on the upward move.
What do you think the whole feeling is toward VCU? I mean your feelings toward the partnership as well as the whole community's in general, if you can say anything about that.
(DK) I feel the biggest impact has been the police protection from the VCU police. That has made the biggest impact on residents, because they've seen them, they know that they have addressed some problems, and I think that has changed some perceptions about the VCU/Carver partnership. I think initially there was a lot of skepticism, as to you know things weren't coming and they'd talk and make us feel good. But I think the actions of the police department and the involvement have had a very big impact. I mean people will say directly that Yes, the VCU police are here. We don't see the city police. I think that has helped overshadow and allay some of the fears that people may have had about VCU. You know there still may be some deep-seated mistrust of VCU, but I definitely think by bringing the police here, the VCU bicycle patrols, the whole neighborhood has an incredible positive image for VCU. And its an incredible investment of resources on their part which I'm not sure that all people understand. There's nothing in it for them really other than PR and improving the area around them, but that's not a real direct benefit for them. It certainly has a very direct benefit to the neighborhood. Lately I think the other parts of the partnership have kind of been in the background, they haven't been as visible as maybe they could be.
(JH) The things that aren't as visible, I think that people that are tied into the school know that there's a whole lot of good stuff going on in Carver in the partnership. As he said the police presence. Other things like the health fair and periodic things that are good, and there's a lot of interest in the neighborhood association about this master plan effort. Something that helps us get our vision for the neighborhood down on paper and implement zoning and try and improve zoning and stuff long range.
(DK) Its interesting because the neighborhood is relying on different aspects of VCU without really I guess thinking about it. They just say "You know, we need to work out this plan to avoid gridlock," like that's how i;s going to be done.
(JH) There are people in the neighborhood who will never change their mind about VCU and what VCU is trying to do. We will have a big meeting and this will come out. People will talk about something. Some of it goes way, way back to when I don't even know if anybody knows how to verify even though they said Somebody told me "back in 1959 that VCU was going to do so and so and they didn't." Or as I said, there's also a divide. Some people in the neighborhood would be upset if VCU came in and bought houses, and other people are upset if they thought that VCU was not going to come in and buy their houses. Something that we started but hasn't really gone very far yet was this idea of trying to work with absentee landowners or slumlord
3
type people to say VCU is not interested in buying your property, why don't you put a little money into it and try to get some money out of it. Here's what I don't understand about people with property that they want to hold onto. They could be renting it at least, keeping it up and getting some money for it and they just say "No, I'm going to let it be worth less year after year while I wait for somebody to come offer me an unreasonable amount of money for it." And so that's why some of these properties are just trapped in limbo because people will say "Yeah, I'll sell the property if you'll give me what I want for it," and no sane person will give them what they want for it.
So you think there are people that maybe came in from the outside and bought in the area hoping VCU would come in?
(JH) I don't know that I've seen that outside speculation.
(DK) There really hasn't been much of that lately. There might have been a little bit of that over the years.
(JH) And there are some people that own right much property.
(DK) Well, we had some reports on that done, but there isn't as much as we think there is. They were looking specifically at vacant property. There trying to find out if there's like four people who own like fifty vacant properties or something. But it really didn't come out to be that way. We were a little surprised by that.
(JH) Well now there is this new phase of Neighborhoods in Bloom where they go into code enforcement and they jostle some of the stuff loose or make a little bit of upheaval, and with that they are making known and reassuring that money is available to people. You know either loans or grants. So my thinking is there is a code violation in every house I'm sure. I shouldn't say this on tape, but there are violations everywhere you know. It depends on if they come in and are relentless--everybody will have them. I'm worried about elderly people on fixed income that are having to do some work on their house that they wouldn't have access to these programs either grant or loan.
Looking at some of the other programs I've heard of, like the towing away of old cars that have been around. I've seen some stickers when I've been driving in and out of this neighborhood on my way to school. Have you guys seen any impact there? Are there less old vehicles around? Are some of the old houses being cleaned up, or is that still a very slow process?
(DK) I think that's a very slow process. I've heard some people say that they've seen red stickers on cars and those cars disappear. I don't know that we really had a big problem with that. At least we didn't down here. Maybe some of the other areas did. I mean, I know there's a few here and there, but one thing with the street cleaning at least on this end of the neighborhood, Clay and Marshall, we have to move cars all the time because they street clean every week so I think that cuts into this end. I think the other end it might be a bigger problem. I don't think we've really seen a big impact on some of the code enforcement, they've only cleaned up a few blocks. (JH) They're just starting.
(DK) And again, that's a pretty slow process. But once you're written up, you have so many months to do something and then they have to come back and do something again, and then months later you end up in court and who knows what the judge does. The city is trying to get a better system for some of that. But again I think we have to be careful of who you're going after and what you're harping on them about. To some, like the elderly, they can't really afford to fix
4
up their front porch or something. You have to be careful. The city is the city and they've got to write up this and that and it doesn't matter whose house it is. So you look at it on one hand and say Yeah, we've got to do this, and then you have this other hand where you say we have to be careful about how we do this.
Finally, I just wanted to touch on the unique perspective that you two have living as two white guys in an area that has such a rich history for being an African American community. I'm not sure what there really is to say about it because I really couldn't imagine it, but can you tell me a little bit about what its like to be here?
(DK) Initially, that was part of the equation. For one, are we going to be welcomed in a predominantly black neighborhood, and I think that was part of our slowly getting involved in the community association thing instead of charging in.
(JH) You know, we're here to show you how to do things.
(DK) That wasn't really the approach and we didn't want to do that.
(JH) That wasn't part of our agenda. It was just we're going to come here, and these will be our neighbors. And right off the bat we were having a good time with some of our immediate neighbors, getting to know each other. I wasn't bringing any discomfort myself to this. There
was just the question of how well we'd fit in. And for that reason, we just attended. And I wanted to start doing that right away. So even before we moved over here I went to a couple of the Carver Civic Improvement League meetings when Miss Peters was still there, the president. And by that just got kind of, an idea of, a little bit of a glimpse of, its prior history before how it is now. And again it was essentially getting to know our neighbors here, our immediate neighbors, at the neighborhood association just going and getting familiarized with faces and slowly learning names, and then it really was working on the alley cleanups and some of the projects and stuff, cause ,when you really get to know people, you start to show that you are investing in the neighborhood. You know, we all want to work toward the same thing and clean up the neighborhood. I would say there was never any perception at all of what are you doing here, or anything like that. And we've just had a really good time with getting to know the group of people that works at the neighborhood association. And we have our things in the park, and every once in a while somebody will do something like have a groundbreaking ceremony for these townhouses, and you'd say well what's going on with that, and you know there'd be a trailer giving out barbecue and stuff, and that's fun. Every once in a while, even though its not a problem or an issue, but every once in a while its there and someone will make a reference to something in a meeting, usually they're angry about something that's going on at one of the big volatile meetings. And there's always the assurance that we're not included in those remarks. (DK) It never gets any reinforcement. One or two people may say something about gentrification or colonization. It used to bother me when that came up, but the more I look back on it, I realize how you know, here's a roomful of sixty people, and this one person's got nothing to say but this. If this was really an issue, other people would be egging them on or cheering them on about this. But nothing, nobody. At one of the town meetings, a very loud argument between two people, longterm residents, about gentrification, and one of them saying, that's discrimination, I've been discriminated against and we don't need to discriminate against anybody anymore. It was a very powerful discussion between these two people, these long time black residents, having this discussion. Its interesting that the one point of view that we would stand up for seemed to be the one that everybody seemed to be behind. There was more support, I mean this gentleman was reading things from a 1969 real estate magazine, and was talking about how the next wave is the moving into the slums and taking over and kicking the people out and stuff. I
5
mean, that was 1969, lets talk about now. That's not what we're here to discuss, and that's not an issue. He got no support, and it brings your comfort level back to where you want it whereas when you first hear this flags start to go up. But then when you realize that there's no support for this position then you come back to being comfortable.
(JH) There's some funny things about it because our situation is by no means unique. But it may be a little unusual because this was many years ago, but maybe it was a Sunday afternoon, and I was planting something in the front yard, and there came a white man walking slowly up the street. And I thought to myself Well here's somebody whose lost. And it turned out it was Tim Kane, and he was running for City Council, and he was walking through the district trying to meet people. There's a funny, you recognize a fish out of water.
(DK) Tim Kane is not the type of person you expect to see walking down the street anyway. We see students walking by, going to there job or something. But he was just walking down the street. Its not expected.
Well, I'd like to thank you again for your time, both now and before. I really do think you have a unique perspective that will help us along as this play is put together. This will be great once we finally get the finished product. Do you have any more thoughts or anything about your experience here, or maybe your vision for Carver that you'd like to share. (JH) Well, I'll just say once again that coming here and not being sure that we started keeping a low profile. But there was really very little chance that two white guys moving in here would go unnoticed. And that its really been wonderful how accepting everybody has been. Really welcoming and accepting from the very beginning. And the only thing I'll add is that we weren't sure when we moved over here how long we would stay or how comfortable we would feel long term and I'm just really content and happy here, and we're not really looking to go anywhere any time soon. It's turned out to be a great place to be.
(DK) The thing is being involved in the Civic Association makes you want to, makes you less want to walk away from it because you feel you've invested something more than just money in a house.
(JH) When I lived in the Fan, I used to rent an apartment there, and I really wasn't interested in preservation stuff, but I really didn't feel like the size of that, that your participation, you know, that they were doing fine without that participation. Whereas here you really feel like you are part of a team, and a pretty effective team, and you know, its amazing, Doug was talking to his parents, they live in Wichita, Kansas, and they said something like, "No, we know the mayor," and we said, "Well, the mayor knows us." And that's a funny thing. Tim Kane knows thousands of people, but just that fact that living in this little community, you have kind of a direct pipeline, direct access to city hall, and you go to something or speak to something and you're recognized not just formally, but Good to see you and you know the history that you have with working with Tim Kane, and similar relationship building with VCU, you have this history of working together on stuff, and access, and you know, partnering.
I really appreciate your time, and I don't want to take any more of it. Thanks for coming back.
6